Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

The prospect of a serious third-party push within the conservative movement, if a bit far-fetched, certainly seems tempting to those disillusioned with the GOP establishment. But it also calls to mind a similar attempt in 1976, and its failure. Had that push succeeded, Ronald Reagan might never have become president—which is to say: Today’s GOP dissidents should take a look back at their history before any renegades attempt to break off.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/ ... html?hp=l8

This is a serous concern for the obvious reason that a split GOP will help the Dems at the ballot box. The author rightly states that people are resistant to change, making establishment of a third party difficult, if not downright impossible. Those of us disenchanted with the GOP are faced with a dilemma. Do we support the activism of the tea-party, or do we rally behind the GOP? Some advocate supporting individual candidates, which would be my choice, as the only way to get our personal agenda's on the table.

Well, if it's true the Dems are the only ones with candidates and they are running against each other with no rep contender, third party is the only option left.

Swampman wrote: Those of us disenchanted with the GOP are faced with a dilemma. Do we support the activism of the tea-party, or do we rally behind the GOP?

As a long time Libertarian, I've generally been on the side lines during this GOP rift, though I usually vote R when having no candidate from my party in the running. I'm also jaded by my belief that the two parties have been the largest obstacle to freedom in my lifetime....that they work for themselves first and foremost, rather than the American people.

It's a good question you pose. Can a genuine paradigm shifting movement within the GOP succeed if the Tea Party emulates the party in social issues but turns Libertarian-ish on fiscal concerns? Or is the old guard too entrenched for such a movement to make headway?

The third party endeavor is not likely to gain enough traction on the national stage for decades to come [which is my major beef with the LP], but in banging their heads against the wall often enough, many Republicans may simply decide to stay home on election day, as seemed to happen here last month.

The Republicans are trying to squash the TEA Party out of their ranks. They apparently don't want "That kind of conservatism" in the Republican party. So, Karl Rove and others have launched a campaign to weed out true conservatives from their ranks.

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce early next year plans to roll out an aggressive effort—expected to cost at least $50 million—to support establishment, business-friendly candidates in primaries and the general election, with an aim of trying to win a Republican Senate majority.

"Our No. 1 focus is to make sure, when it comes to the Senate, that we have no loser candidates," said the business group's top political strategist, Scott Reed. "That will be our mantra: No fools on our ticket."

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 4264850074

More and more it seems to me, we don't really have a two-party system. We have Democrats, and Democrats-lite (GOP). I look at the Tea Party, or the Libertarian Party, as the only real counterbalance. The more we cling to the Reagan-era GOP, which is long gone, the more we look like modern democrats clinging to the FDR or Kennedy-era DNC. Times change, realities change. If we don't face these facts, we are just growing closer to one-party rule with each passing year. Is it any wonder why the GOP hates the Tea Party? The TP represents true conservatism, which is still the true belief system of over 60% of the voters, if you believe Rush Limbaugh.

What sort of platform-aligment would it take for Libertarians and Tea Party to join forces?

PhantomPhixer wrote:What sort of platform-aligment would it take for Libertarians and Tea Party to join forces?

I think it would take some serious negotiations on social issues and civil liberties. With the Tea Party as amorphous as it is, I haven't seen a consolidated message, and have seen some pretty mixed signals on this front from the various Tea factions....I think this is the largest obstacle.

HEY! I have stated it before, I was a CONSERVATIVE libertarian before there WAS a tea party!

ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS TAKE OVER THE LOCAL PARTIES, MOVE TO THE STATE PARTIES, THEN FORCE OUT THE FEDERAL PARTY!

I'm TELLING you! It would WORK! We just need to stop acting like a herd of cats, and focus!

Real simple folks! TERRY MAC WON BECAUSE OF THE DIVISIONS!

And the suck-job Progressive/Communists will CONTINUE to win as long as there is INFIGHTING! Not brain surgery folks! A house divided will not stand!

The P/C's are cult-like in their ideas, behaviors, and views! It's like fighting zombies, only they want "Mmoooooonnneeeyyyy" instead of "brrrraaaiiiinnnsss".

Reverenddel wrote:HEY! I have stated it before, I was a CONSERVATIVE libertarian before there WAS a tea party!

ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS TAKE OVER THE LOCAL PARTIES, MOVE TO THE STATE PARTIES, THEN FORCE OUT THE FEDERAL PARTY!

I'm TELLING you! It would WORK! We just need to stop acting like a herd of cats, and focus!

Real simple folks! TERRY MAC WON BECAUSE OF THE DIVISIONS!

And the suck-job Progressive/Communists will CONTINUE to win as long as there is INFIGHTING! Not brain surgery folks! A house divided will not stand!

The P/C's are cult-like in their ideas, behaviors, and views! It's like fighting zombies, only they want "Mmoooooonnneeeyyyy" instead of "brrrraaaiiiinnnsss".

Problem is that many (most?) "Conservative Libertarians" don't want to be labeled as "Republican", so it's difficult to get people like you into the "R" ranks. In order to effect change within the R party, true conservatives have to be willing to don the R label.

Frustrating. Why care about the R label? It's ridiculous.

We could have right some wrongs many moons ago, if not for that. And so many more wrongs would not have happened.

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dontreadonme wrote:

PhantomPhixer wrote:What sort of platform-aligment would it take for Libertarians and Tea Party to join forces?

I think it would take some serious negotiations on social issues and civil liberties. With the Tea Party as amorphous as it is, I haven't seen a consolidated message, and have seen some pretty mixed signals on this front from the various Tea factions....I think this is the largest obstacle.

Agreed. It would involve the Tea Party to getting a more complete platform to begin with. When I think of Tea Party, based on what I've seen on Tea Party sites they tend to have a platform focusing on fiscal conservatism which tends to align well with the libertarians. When you go beyond the Tea Party platform is where things tend to get sticky as a lot of those fiscal conservatives tend to also be social conservatives.

Everyone focuses on elections and tries the daunting task of getting all these factions together, only for there to be splintered results. In between these elections though is where actual work gets done and these factions should easily be able to come together on specific issues where there is a common bond. I think the American uprising against Obama's war with Syria is a great example of people of all walks of life and political spectrums coming together on a specific, common purpose. The problem is that we tend to not have that kind of intensity on a specific issue 99% of the time. It's just elect your guy and go back to your life until the next election.

Hopefully as the GOP walks away from its conservative stance (immigration, debt, healthcare), plenty of opportunity for common ground can be found. Libertarian, Tea Party, even Constitution Party.

PhantomPhixer wrote:Hopefully as the GOP walks away from its conservative stance (immigration, debt, healthcare), plenty of opportunity for common ground can be found. Libertarian, Tea Party, even Constitution Party.

Give it a few more election cycles. Karl Rove will be advocating voting for Democrat candidates to teach those conservative and wacko libertarian losers a lesson.

Good comments here, but my problem with the TP is that they haven't figured out they need to run from the social issues that always get the right in trouble. Abortion, which in my view is tantamount to premeditated murder, needs to be dropped from the platform. It's a no-win for the right. Immigration has become, or is becoming, a social issue. It needs to be turned back into the legal issue that it is, and that needs to be stated in strong terms. Welfare is another one that has become a social issue. It's an economic issue!

The right-wing pundits, nearly all of them, are trying to explain away the rights opposition to these issues using arguments the left can easily defeat. You can't upend the left by trying to cut people's heart strings. The right needs to change the tenor of the conversation. One way to do that is to start talking about these issues in terms of economics and constitutionality, and refuse to engage in the social aspect of the conversation.

Changing the conversation won't be easy. Reagan showed it can be done, but after that we lost our way.

I agree about the social issues. Abortion is an election killer. Better to fight that issue when you've stayed the rest of the constitution, than while you're losing the whole document.

With welfare, I also agree. I think a lesson may also be learned from the recent Sharpton awakening in Chicago. Perhaps pointing out that it hasn't worked out for you in the last, how many years? will help move their votes!

I also think really embracing the small govt, and combining it with killing the overreach by the alphabet agencies would help. Save a dollar, and protect your freedoms!

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The Dems are going hard left, and the Reps slowly but surely follow them.

The WH and Senate shall remain forever blue, and the House will be there in 20 years.

IMO if you want to see the real future of the Dems watch NYC Mayor Bill de Blasios inauguration and all of the speakers.

Remek wrote:I agree about the social issues. Abortion is an election killer. Better to fight that issue when you've stayed the rest of the constitution, than while you're losing the whole document.

With welfare, I also agree. I think a lesson may also be learned from the recent Sharpton awakening in Chicago. Perhaps pointing out that it hasn't worked out for you in the last, how many years? will help move their votes!

I also think really embracing the small govt, and combining it with killing the overreach by the alphabet agencies would help. Save a dollar, and protect your freedoms!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

^^^This is it. Plus, the current Karl Rove base is purely corporatist in its allegiance and this has to be attacked directly.

If Liberitariansm could have succeded it would have by now.

I plan to support the originalist constitutional candidate from whatever party, by candidate and work actively against them if they turn big government. Nearest effective orginization that does that is not libertarian but the TEA party.

Anyone pick up that the democraps are counting on libertarians to win them elections?

Yep! The DEMOCRATS LOVE LIBERTARIANS AND THIRD PARTIES!

They lose single digit numbers, GOP loses double digits...

Tellin' you, I couldn't care less about the name, if the libertarians, and constitutionalists, and Tea Party went completely into the GOP, and took out the social engineering peace- not ENDORSING any lifestyle choices, proposed massive cuts, and put in a protection against eminent domain, and pushed a NATIONAL concealed carry acceptance....

They would just wipe the floor with the progressive/commies.

The whole "BLOW WHO YOU WANT, BUT DO NOT BLOW THIS ELECTION BY VOTING FOR HIGHER TAXES!" campaign.

^^^THIS! Fellas, we may be on to something here! How do we get this in front of the useless turds who keep losing elections for us?