Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Are these more or less equal in terms of damage they'd cause or does the .45 ACP FMJ 230 gr still trump the 9mm HP 115 gr because of weight?

I think there are too many variables to say. Perhaps this link that reflects what the ammo experts think regarding terminal ballistics in a more general manner will be helpful for you:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm

I would say the 9mm HP would do more damage to the first guy in line than the .45FMJ but the second guy in line would have problems with the .45 and probably not the 9mm. This assumes that all targets are wearing no of little clothing on their torsos. It does not take much to plug a 9mmHP. In general, neither round is optimal for taking down subjects as one was really designed to wound and the other is finicky as far as expansion. Still, I don't want to be the guy on the wrong end to test the theories.

Assuming a defensive shoot against a person that is a medium build American.

Having shot gel, I would take the 9mm JHP. And I prefer 147gr.

Heavy clothing or light?
Will the HP expand reliably? Will the cavity fill with cloth or sheet rock and become equal to a FMJ?
Indoors or out?
Over penetration, of a non-expanding 9x19 JHP will be greater than a non-expanding .45.
Have the police found the 9x19 JHP to be everything they could want and what do shooting statistics say?
Are the troops in the sand box happy with the 9x19 and 5.56?
Why, with so many better .45 bullet designs, would any one use a .45 FMJ-RN? It shows a lack of consideration for the issue, restricted thinking, or intentional handicapping of one cartridge over the other.
My .45s feed JHPs and SWCs at least as reliably as my 9x19s feed the same style bullet.
I would say for any caliber/cartridge: HP, SWC, FN, and, finally, a RN in order of MY preference. I think I fired a RN last time about 37 years ago--worthless bullet in my opinion.
So, a .45 JHP or JSWC would be my choice -- but I consider the 9x19 as being not much more than a fun cartridge of limited accuracy (compared to almost any .45 Auto) and of little tactical advantage (need heavy clothing and ballistic armor to start to show any advantage).
Others will disagree with me. It's my life and it's their life.

Chasbo00 wrote:I think there are too many variables to say. Perhaps this link that reflects what the ammo experts think regarding terminal ballistics in a more general manner will be helpful for you:

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_D ... /index.htm

For any specific bullet, yes. However, on average any modern 9mm HP is much better than .45FMJ. It's not just about the bullet diameter, but also about bullet shape (e.g. dangerous game flat nose hard cast). A good 9mm HP will expand to approx. 0.55" - 0.75". The expanded HP shape of the same size will cause more damage than an aerodynamic FMJ.

As was recently posted on here, the common defense calibers with modern HPs all perform similarly. On average, any of these HPs will perform much better than FMJ. Finally, don't forget the danger than FMJ puts innocents in. FMJ has a habit of over-penetrating be it the threat or barriers.

I try to avoid the what caliber or bullet is best arguments and instead refer folks to the ammo experts' writings. I did that earlier in this thread and I'll stick with it.

I've always felt the 45 had better stopping power, but shot placement trumps all as well regardless of caliber. All things considered, you'll likely be carrying more rounds with the 9 over the 45

Well, a 9mm HP hopes to be come .45. The 45 round will not shrink.
Use truncated cone 230 fmj or cast SWC and you will have resolved any real or imagined lack in the 45.

Jim

Welcome to the most frequently debated firearm topic on the planet.

BTW, I read on the interwebz that with proper shot placement a .22LR will do just fine.

The OP asks if one trumps the other because of WEIGHT.. The answer is no.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

OP, you know this is a "Who will win, Flash Gordon or Tarzan" kind of question, right?

Of course, the rational question would have been a 9x19 JHP or a .45 JHP, or a 9x19 FMJ-RN or a .45 FMJ-RN.
I will repeat, I wouldn't even think of using a RN bullet for self-defense and I hope that I am never in a battle where having more ammunition is more important than the effectiveness of each shot. If seven/eight rounds of .45 isn't enough, will 12-18 rounds of 9x19 be any better?
My life is not combat where wounding can sometimes be as good as killing. This is putting someone down and not having them get back up and start attacking again.

Look at the one shot stop statistics.

9mm JHP trumps 45ACP FMJ.

BTW, The real difference between surviving an attack and not is not a cartridge war 380, 38 special, 9mm, 357Sig, 357mag, 40S&W, 10mm, 45ACP, 44mag, 50AE..... It is your ability to shoot center of mass every time. If you can put two in the center from any of the above cartridges and any bullet you have, odds are the attacker will not continue to attack. (Note, condoms do fail, the pill is not 100%, it happens with good guns, bullets....also.)

noylj wrote:Of course, the rational question would have been a 9x19 JHP or a .45 JHP, or a 9x19 FMJ-RN or a .45 FMJ-RN.
I will repeat, I wouldn't even think of using a RN bullet for self-defense and I hope that I am never in a battle where having more ammunition is more important than the effectiveness of each shot. If seven/eight rounds of .45 isn't enough, will 12-18 rounds of 9x19 be any better?
My life is not combat where wounding can sometimes be as good as killing. This is putting someone down and not having them get back up and start attacking again.

I share your hope, but increasingly the reality is that multiple attackers commit the assault, so you better have enough rounds for 3-4 of them if needed. To me, this is the trump card that hands the advantage to double-stack 9mm.

Even if the hollow point of the 9mm JHP gets plugged up, it becomes a 9mm FP. With the technology out there now in bullet design, this is becoming less of an issue.

I share your hope, but increasingly the reality is that multiple attackers commit the assault, so you better have enough rounds for 3-4 of them if needed. To me, this is the trump card that hands the advantage to double-stack 9mm.

It's unfortunate, but this sounds right to me. Even though I'm a 1911 fan, it remains that 7-8 rounds is plenty for 1, adequate for 2, but it would be really marginal for 3 or 4. Counting on your performance to be flawless is a recipe for a bad outcome.

Has anyone tried the 185 grain Flatnose .45 ACP in this test?