Brandishing... a pepper spray?

[kjkimx]

I live in an apartment community in Fairfax.
As I was walking my dog (a Korean Jindo) this morning, I encountered a woman with a very aggressive dog, which seemed to be an American Pit-bull Terrier.
She yelled something unintelligible, and as I don't like confrontations, I proceeded to circle around a tall large bush that was in between me and the woman.
This was not the first time I've encountered this unpleasant woman, so I just wanted to avoid all interaction.
Her dog started to bark fiercely and the woman proceeded to drag her dog into the her apartment building nearby.

At this point, we had no verbal interactions.

However, she came back out with another small white dog and walked to me in a confrontational manner, and then started yelling at me.
According to her, I didn't move away enough from her "not-so-dog-friendly dog" (we had a good 15~20 yards between us) and was being inconsiderate.
At this point, I did not want any more interaction with her, so I expressed that I did not want to talk and started walking away.

She kept yelling and following me in the courtyard (common area for the residents), stating that since she lives right there, the courtyard is considered to be "her area."

I tried to explain that since we all are renters, everyone is allowed to use the common areas, but she would not listen.

She then took out a white canister and pointed at me.
As she was brandishing the pepper spray, she threatened me by saying that she will "use pepper spray next time."
I was puzzled as she was the one following me, and my dog and I were either standing still or moving away from her during our encounter.
My dog was alert but calm, staying by my side.

Also, I am sure that I wasn't the only one offended when she yelled "go back to your country!"
I did kindly inform her that America IS my country as I am a US citizen.

I have never met anyone (dog owner or not) acting in such bellicose and racist manner in this neighborhood, so I was a little shocked.

I let the apartment management know that if she makes additional threats against me, I will be recording the incident and will be pressing charges.
I normally have a voice recorder on me whenever I go out, but sadly, I was lazy this time.
I also informed the management that she seemed to be having a very hard time controlling her dog.

I currently perceive her fierce 60+ lb looking dog combined with her pepper spray as a deadly force, as I am a relatively slender male around 145 lbs and am currently suffering from a minor back problem.

I have found the following from the code of VA:

§ 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

Does pepper spray fall into the "air or gas operated weapon" category?

Thank you,
KJ


EDIT: I did not have a firearm on me either... I was being really lazy. Just added this to point out that and the woman had absolutely no reason to perceive me as a "threat."

[ProShooter]

Does pepper spray fall into the "air or gas operated weapon" category?

Thank you,
KJ

No.

That statute only talks about firearms and objects similar in appearance.

[kjkimx]

Thank you for the information Jim!

[Purdune]

I've got a similar problem with person in my neighborhood that breeds pit bulls. He is raising them to be aggressive and they have chased my daughters and mother in law in my own yard. Never when I was there to see it. They don't have a fence and just turn them loose for bathroom breaks. Kids in the neighborhood have complained about being bit.

I've talked with my neighbors about this. No one seems to like this behavior of our mutual neighbor. Matter of fact shortly after I started bringing this up I learned that someone had reported one of the dogs loose and it was impounded and never returned. Not me. Point is by talking with others in a very nice without malice way I found that others had the same opinions. This seems to have emboldened others to be more active. I suggest this as well. The more people that complain about this person the more likely the building managers are to do something. It also doesn't hurt that others might be looking out for trouble and may be dialing 911 if things seem "real" in the common areas.

[Swampman]

If a dog enters my private property acting in a vicious manner, threatening my family (including my dog) it'll be dead quicker than you can say spit. Unfortunately you don't have that luxury. KJ, I'd be documenting the hell out of this woman. I'd put up fliers around the complex and make sure everyone knows about this woman and her animal. This is going to lead to someone or their pet being injured probably seriously. This is why most humans shouldn't keep animals, and pit bulls are nothing but trouble.

[SHMIV]

Hold on, now. Let's not blame the pit bull for the failings of its owner. Yes, pit bulls are vicious when raised to be that way, but the same holds true for any dog. I've got a pit who is very friendly (though, he is protective of his territory). He plays well with other dogs, and with people. Pits are like guns; dangerous when possessed by folks who ought not have them, and they get a lot of bad press.

OP, I'd suggest that you keep that recorder with you. And, maybe get your own pepper spray. Or, wasp spray. If she comes at you with a large dog and spray in hand, spray her first.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[jdonovan]

I let the apartment management know that if she makes additional threats against me, I will be recording the incident and will be pressing charges.

Dont wait, call the police now.

This is the kind of person who will continue to be a problem, and you need to start documenting the evidence that you were the 'good guy'.

I currently perceive her fierce 60+ lb looking dog combined with her pepper spray as a deadly force, as I am a relatively slender male around 145 lbs and am currently suffering from a minor back problem.

She had a chemical spray out, at the ready and threatened to use it. .... yes all the elements of a threat of severe harm. INAL, but this certainly is getting VERY close to the threshold where you could have responded with lethal force, justifiably.

here on out... 100% with recorder, and armed. If you see her, call the cops preemptively. The BEST thing you could have happen is her to be all spun up and acting irrationally when the law arrives.

Even a day later... CALL THE POLICE get this documented.

[Kreutz]

I've got a similar problem with person in my neighborhood that breeds pit bulls. He is raising them to be aggressive and they have chased my daughters and mother in law in my own yard.

Shoot them.

[dorminWS]

Unless a court somewhere in VA has already ruled that "air or gas operated weapon" does not include pepper spray, maybe you could argue that it is within the plain English wording of the statute against brandishing, but it would be a stretch because I agree it was aimed at firearms or things that appeared to be firearms; and was probably written before pepper spray became available (although one could argue that the pepper spray that comes in a gun-like container clearly IS, included, etc, etc, etc) .

But it seems to me that the conduct described does constitute good, old-fashioned assault, and I think I would complain to the police before it ripens into assault and battery.

[Purdune]

@SHMIV,
Yep. Pits are, by nature, an aggressive dog and the reason why horrible dog people breed/train them to fight each other. This doesn't mean they are a bad breed nor a bad dog to own. Their are two other pits that share the same fence with my German Shepard. They love chasing each other back and forth on the fence line and I've seen them, paws on the top of the fence, licking each others ears. Gross! Unfortunately the bad breeders/owners means they get a bad rap and whenever I see one I don't know, I automatically send out my ESP vibes that I'll kill them in a heart beat, no question about it as I'm a human and your just a dog, don't even think about it. Don't judge me it works...

@Kreutz,
Yes that is an option but I'm not just going to pull out my gun and kill a dog when it's running back and forth on my fence line. Besides I've got a big German Shepard. He is well trained and I let him in the front yard as he won't leave unless I tell him it's ok. One of the pits took him off guard as he is friendly to dogs. It only happened once. Now I have to watch my dog as he has chased the pits back to their yard and told them who's boss. Nothing like seeing one of them pits whimper and whine all the way back home.

Anyway I work for people that would want an awful lot of paper work if they see a police report on me so I've got to be extra careful that if I do shoot one of them it's because someone is about to get hurt bad by them. Besides I'm not just going to shot an animal just because I don't like them. I don't think you will either and yes I totally understand your thought.

[SHMIV]

@Purdune: Heh, I send out similer "ESP vibes" to pretty much any large dog. You're right, it seems to work.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[kelu]

It may be a cultural difference, but I don't see it as brandishing, but as plain threat.

[VACoastie]

Let someone point OC at my face when I'm not in a threatening way. They'll see how quickly I will COUNTER their threatening gesture via a tackle, hand swipe, pressure point, or whatever seems appropriate for the situation. OC deployed from distances less than 4 feet can be lethal because of the pinpoint pressure caused by the stream. However, deadly force because someone brandishing OC? No. You don't one up someone who isn't in possession of a deadly weapon, that's just foolishness.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[ProShooter]

OC deployed from distances less than 4 feet can be lethal because of the pinpoint pressure caused by the stream.

Where in the world did you get that from?

[scrubber3]

OC deployed from distances less than 4 feet can be lethal because of the pinpoint pressure caused by the stream.

Where in the world did you get that from?

The Internet I'm sure.....

This is another case of if you keep it simple, you'll be less stressed and so will she.

Simple solution. Just avoid her and her area. Is it really worth the trouble? Don't you have better things to do? Just keep your distance and I'm sure you won't have to put up with her anymore. Getting near her is just asking for trouble. Kinda looking for it so to speak. Prevent anything before it happens.

[VACoastie]

@ProShooter My training, we're not supposed to deploy it from 4 feet away if possible. That is if you're using the stream and not the spray or foam version of the OC. Trust me, I'll use it within 4 feet if I have to, but it CAN be deadly (read lethal force). How so? You'll shoot their eye out kid! That's the whole reasoning for us that we consider less than 4 ft deployment of OC potentially lethal, we never do it less than that for training purposes, try not to do it in confined spaces, wind in face, with friendliest nearby in the real world.

Would I do it with less that 4 feet? Again, hell yes if the situation dictates it.

@Scrubber Thanks for the snide remark there scrub. Some of us actually have experience with things where as other on here make pretend.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[tursiops]

Actually, I just tried to find something on the internet about pepper spray being lethal. The only thing I can find is: (a) no tests or evidence are really available for police-strength OC, (b) public-strength OC as a jet may damage an eye, and (c) OC sprayed on a drug user might potentiate that drug. So, it's not clear what VACoastie's training is based on, unless one supposes that shooting an eye out is deadly. Most likely the 4-foot rule is for police-strength, and is simply being precautionary. But it does seem arbitrary....why 4 ft, rather than 3 or 5?

[VACoastie]

Deadly Force is defined by Coast Guard as: "Any force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury."

Serious Physical Injury defined: "Actual physical injury to the body that results in unconsciousness, protracted and obvious disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty."

OC pepper Spray - has an effective range of 4-12 ft, no less than 5%, no more than 10% mix of OC, must be water based, non-flammable, non-toxic, must be straight stream delivery, must have thumb activated switch

I sure hope I need not explain myself further.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[scrubber3]

@ProShooter My training, we're not supposed to deploy it from 4 feet away if possible. That is if you're using the stream and not the spray or foam version of the OC. Trust me, I'll use it within 4 feet if I have to, but it CAN be deadly (read lethal force). How so? You'll shoot their eye out kid! That's the whole reasoning for us that we consider less than 4 ft deployment of OC potentially lethal, we never do it less than that for training purposes, try not to do it in confined spaces, wind in face, with friendliest nearby in the real world.

Would I do it with less that 4 feet? Again, hell yes if the situation dictates it.

@Scrubber Thanks for the snide remark there scrub. Some of us actually have experience with things where as other on here make pretend.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

My pleasure.


Now where did I leave my playdoh......?

[tursiops]

Deadly Force is defined by Coast Guard as: "Any force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury."

Serious Physical Injury defined: "Actual physical injury to the body that results in unconsciousness, protracted and obvious disfigurement, or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member, organ, or mental faculty."

OC pepper Spray - has an effective range of 4-12 ft, no less than 5%, no more than 10% mix of OC, must be water based, non-flammable, non-toxic, must be straight stream delivery, must have thumb activated switch

I sure hope I need not explain myself further.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

No, you need not explain yourself further. What you've just said makes sense. What you said initially does not. I think the problem was in the difference between "deadly force" and "lethal." The former is a less strong term than the latter, in legal use it seems. In common use, they are more similar. The former allows -- as shown by the CG definition -- for serious harm, not just death. The latter is about death.