Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

How in the world could something like this have happened?:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... 4886.story

"the department has identified multiple problems — including the fact that there were no supervisors on site. "

Multiple law-enforcement sources with knowledge of the investigation said they believe the officer who fired the shot mistakenly had his service weapon instead of a "simunition" weapon, which fires rounds similar to paintballs.

I can't imagine going into a training exercise and not knowing whether I had live rounds loaded. I've never been in such a training situation, but I would think that I would check, double-check and maybe even look one more time before I entered the training environment to verify that I was carrying the correct firearm and that it was loaded properly for training.

This boils down to a careless rookie officer who wasn't paying attention and didn't fully consider the ramifications of carrying a firearm (thereby taking appropriate precautions).

This is all just speculation, I suppose...

Regardless - why isn't there a range officer who checks all firearms before entering the facility? I'll bet there will be from now on. Another rule made because the least common denominator couldn't handle himself responsibly.

I could go on and on...

Yet another instance where the police department in a major city demonstrates a profound lack of standards, judgment and common sense. Scary.

Looks more like what might happen if you turned loose a bunch of totally untrained, stoned teenagers.

Eeven if is was an "accidental discharge" of a live round, what the hell was he doing placing a headshot? Center mass, center mass, center mass. Head shots are last resorts and in no way should a "rookie" have even attempted it. Bad training, bad results. Personally I think the "rookie" should be charged with negligent homicide at least and more so malicious wounding while being a dipst!t! Jmho

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reminds me of that training scene in Starship Troopers...

MEDIC!!!

Or maybe the scene from Pulp Fiction?

"Aw man, I just shot Melvin in the face..."

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I am not making excuses for the multiple failures to prevent such an accident, however I will explain some things about the circumstances.

In the US military the "preferred" training tool is MILES (Multiple Integrated Laser Engagement System), in reality it is a heavy duty laser tag system. Laser transmitters are installed on rifles, machine guns and even tanks and other vehicles. Receivers are worn by Soldiers and are mounted on the vehicles. The transmitters "fire" when the weapon is fired. The tanks and anti-armor weapons don't fire a real round but something that gives off a "signature" to let other participants know the weapon has fired. The small arms used for this training are the very same ones that Soldiers qualify with and carry into harm's way. The only difference between using them for blank firing versus live ammo is the use of a blank firing attachment, commonly referred to as a BFA or blank adapter. Hollywood hides them in the flash suppressor. The Military on the other hand use a bright red/ yellow/ orange attachment, so that you can see that it is installed. In training, units put a lot of effort into ensuring blanks and live ammo don't get mixed up with multiple checks to see no ammo makes it on to or off of the range or training area.

Simunitions on the other hand are low powered paint marking rounds. For all intents and purposes, they fire just like a regular bullet, just at a lower velocity. Usually in order to use Simunitions, bolts or slides may need to be changed, lighter springs might need to be installed. It might even require a replacement barrel. Usually that type of installation is done by a Police Department's armorer.

What I am trying to emphasize here is, the weapons that you train with are the same ones you carry every day, however they take some preparation to use for training. What surprises me about this story is, it sounds like these cadets had ammo all the time. Throw in the fact they were at a facility that has been used for training in the past and no supervisors/ trainers (that last one is hard for me to believe). The story leaves more questions than it answers.

dorminWS wrote:Yet another instance where the police department in a major city demonstrates a profound lack of standards, judgment and common sense. Scary.

Looks more like what might happen if you turned loose a bunch of totally untrained, stoned teenagers.

+1

grumpyMSG wrote:Simunitions on the other hand are low powered paint marking rounds. For all intents and purposes, they fire just like a regular bullet, just at a lower velocity. Usually in order to use Simunitions, bolts or slides may need to be changed, lighter springs might need to be installed. It might even require a replacement barrel. Usually that type of installation is done by a Police Department's armorer.

Having actually trained with simunitions, I've never seen or heard of real guns being modified for this purpose. For safety they are usually color coded (e.g. bright Blue Glock = simunition gun) and you can't mistake one for the other. Also, they are purpose built to avoid chambering a live round and with many of the functional tweaks so they even function given the low velocity of the paint round. Furthermore, when ever this training is done the best practices I've seen require EVERYONE to disarm, store, and check your buddy for ALL real guns/ammo before the simunition guns/ammo are even brought out from locked storage. Going back the other way is just as tedious. Sometimes there are whole separate rooms and no real guns/ammo EVER are allowed in the simunition room.

gunderwood wrote:

grumpyMSG wrote:Simunitions on the other hand are low powered paint marking rounds. For all intents and purposes, they fire just like a regular bullet, just at a lower velocity. Usually in order to use Simunitions, bolts or slides may need to be changed, lighter springs might need to be installed. It might even require a replacement barrel. Usually that type of installation is done by a Police Department's armorer.

Having actually trained with simunitions, I've never seen or heard of real guns being modified for this purpose. For safety they are usually color coded (e.g. bright Blue Glock = simunition gun) and you can't mistake one for the other. Also, they are purpose built to avoid chambering a live round and with many of the functional tweaks so they even function given the low velocity of the paint round. Furthermore, when ever this training is done the best practices I've seen require EVERYONE to disarm, store, and check your buddy for ALL real guns/ammo before the simunition guns/ammo are even brought out from locked storage. Going back the other way is just as tedious. Sometimes there are whole separate rooms and no real guns/ammo EVER are allowed in the simunition room.

Chances are very strong you did train with weapons that were converted. They were converted before you ever saw them: http://simunition.com/en/products/conversion_kits. It would be great if all departments had the budget to have service weapons and dedicated simmunitions weapons, but that may not be an achievable goal. I agree that the leaders and trainers need to be extra vigilant as to the possibility of injury in training in environments where firearms will be pointed at people. In my 28 years of dealing with it, I never saw a case of a live round going through a BFA. I have seen BFAs get stuck on machine-guns (actually galled the threads on the BFA from overheating it). I have seen accidental discharges at clearing barrels (that is why you use them).

grumpyMSG wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

grumpyMSG wrote:Simunitions on the other hand are low powered paint marking rounds. For all intents and purposes, they fire just like a regular bullet, just at a lower velocity. Usually in order to use Simunitions, bolts or slides may need to be changed, lighter springs might need to be installed. It might even require a replacement barrel. Usually that type of installation is done by a Police Department's armorer.

Having actually trained with simunitions, I've never seen or heard of real guns being modified for this purpose. For safety they are usually color coded (e.g. bright Blue Glock = simunition gun) and you can't mistake one for the other. Also, they are purpose built to avoid chambering a live round and with many of the functional tweaks so they even function given the low velocity of the paint round. Furthermore, when ever this training is done the best practices I've seen require EVERYONE to disarm, store, and check your buddy for ALL real guns/ammo before the simunition guns/ammo are even brought out from locked storage. Going back the other way is just as tedious. Sometimes there are whole separate rooms and no real guns/ammo EVER are allowed in the simunition room.

Chances are very strong you did train with weapons that were converted. They were converted before you ever saw them: http://simunition.com/en/products/conversion_kits. It would be great if all departments had the budget to have service weapons and dedicated simmunitions weapons, but that may not be an achievable goal. I agree that the leaders and trainers need to be extra vigilant as to the possibility of injury in training in environments where firearms will be pointed at people. In my 28 years of dealing with it, I never saw a case of a live round going through a BFA. I have seen BFAs get stuck on machine-guns (actually galled the threads on the BFA from overheating it). I have seen accidental discharges at clearing barrels (that is why you use them).

I know for a fact they were not. They were blue FRAMED Glocks, which are only sold for simunition training. Also had blue mags. This wasn't a slide replacement, etc. However, that's a good point that not everyone has the budget.

http://us.glock.com/products/model/g17tfx

Of course we also used the red framed Glocks and frangibles to cut down on lead exposure as well.

Headline: Instructor may have injured officer outside of training drill

State investigators are exploring whether a Baltimore police instructor who shot a trainee this week was horsing around and not participating in a drill when he accidentally reached for his service weapon instead of a paint-cartridge pistol, according to sources familiar with the inquiry.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryla ... 8580.story