Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

No, I didn't think so.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/49807529/

I was discussing this with a variety of folks over the last few weeks. Thanks for the link.

Same here Mindflayer. Heck, I wouldn't even say 150k a year as "middle" class. 100k a year in my mind would cap upper middle class, but then again I'm no Ben Stein. Makes sense to me though (my middle class factor). I make ~55k and we get by. Not struggling, but not doing much fancy either. I am a bit of a penny pincher, but who shouldn't be these days. Course, a wedding, honeymoon, vacation back to VA for a week and a half... That did cut my expenses and savings a lot this year.

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Since 250 is about 220 more than i make,yes its rich.that being said,i dont think the govt has any right to it

Well, what the main message is (although it is not said outright) that in many if not most cases, if you go where you can MAKE $250,000, $250,000 won't buy enough to make you that much better off than someone who makes half or two thirds of that and doesn't live in an overpriced, overcomplicated metropolitan area where you even have to pay big money to get your dog walked. Another issue here is that as you make more money, you are forced into a lifestyle where you have no choice but to spend more money. A good example is the two-income family that must pay out $30k for childcare because both parents are professionals who work 50-60 hours a week. So it really is a raw deal to have some @sshat like Obama deciding you ought to pay more taxes because you have a larger gross income. My guess would be that you’d have to be raking in something in the $400,000-and-up range to really be in a position to pay more taxes without unfair hardship. And guess what? There aren’t enough of those people to have any impact on the deficit. That leaves no reason for soaking the rich except just plain old envy. So that seems to me to clear up what the “revenge” was that Obama was talking about.

What is wealth? My eyes were opened after I read The Millomaire Next Door.
Folks can make millions a year but if they blow it all on fancy high priced stuff (the way some pro sports players and rock stars do) and then lose their income they'll be just as broke as a minimum wage earner. The truly wealthy are the ones who save their mney and you might not know it but your neighbor could be a millionare. Don't let that Ford F150 he's driving fool you.

Its hard for me to talk about stuff like this on gun forums because I'm a Democrat and you can guess about what that means. People complain about not making enough money, but instead of blaming their employer who could be paying them a higher wage they blame it on a politician.

Ain't no president out there can change the economy without the cooperation of Congress, China, OPEC ,Russia and Latin America and last but not least, the Corporate Head Honchos who are really the ones in control of this country.

Yup, in NoVA, if your household is making $250k, I'd say you're just middle class. Between mortgage, child care, gas, taxes, groceries, etc. etc. it's still not easy.

Grats on the wedding and honeymoon, VACoastie. Did the same thing two back in September.

Excusing the fact one can be rich and have no wealth and one can be wealthy and not rich, here in Roanoke VA thats definitely really well off. I was making close to that in the metro area of New York city and no...its very far from rich once you factor in high cost of living and taxes.

Edit: Does this proposed number of 250k use the gross or the AGI?

In the high costs area of NY, NJ, and CT people deduct their property taxes, which will put damned near anyone making 260k-270k well under the 250k threshold.

Mindflayer wrote:Yup, in NoVA, if your household is making $250k, I'd say you're just middle class. Between mortgage, child care, gas, taxes, groceries, etc. etc. it's still not easy.

It does depend on how expensive it is to live there. There are plenty of places in the US where $250k isn't rich IMHO. There are also places in the world where $40k a year lets you live like a king. Generally people who make that kind of money have serious financial obligations that your average American can't fathom. For example, a young doctor making $250k likely has student loans costing more than many of our houses. That doctor not only has serious debt, but also gave up a decade or more of wages to attend medical school, etc. People only see the dollar figure and think, wow it's 5x what I make...that must be nice!

By most measures, a $250,000 household income is substantial. It is five times the national average, and just 2.9 percent of couples earn that much or more. “For the average person in this country, a $250,000 household income is an unattainably high annual sum — they’ll never see it,” says Roberton Williams, an analyst at the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank in Washington, D.C.

If $250k is not rich and only 2.9% of couples earn that much or more, this country is full of poor people.

ShotgunBlast wrote:

By most measures, a $250,000 household income is substantial. It is five times the national average, and just 2.9 percent of couples earn that much or more. “For the average person in this country, a $250,000 household income is an unattainably high annual sum — they’ll never see it,” says Roberton Williams, an analyst at the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank in Washington, D.C.

If $250k is not rich and only 2.9% of couples earn that much or more, this country is full of poor people.

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You have overlooked the fact that there is a difference between "poor" and "not rich".

gunderwood wrote:For example, a young doctor making $250k likely has student loans costing more than many of our houses. That doctor not only has serious debt, but also gave up a decade or more of wages to attend medical school, etc. People only see the dollar figure and think, wow it's 5x what I make...that must be nice!

You'd be surprised to know how many doctors use debt to keep their practices afloat.

Kreutz wrote:

gunderwood wrote:For example, a young doctor making $250k likely has student loans costing more than many of our houses. That doctor not only has serious debt, but also gave up a decade or more of wages to attend medical school, etc. People only see the dollar figure and think, wow it's 5x what I make...that must be nice!

You'd be surprised to know how many doctors use debt to keep their practices afloat.

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I wouldn't. Many of them go from poor students to making a good income to making a WAD of money pretty fast, and as has been noted, they are already used to having incurred staggering debt. They just get cavalier about money. That, in my opinion, is one of the root causes of how bad our system is screwed up. A lot of doctors tend to take the attitude that money doesn't matter if it interferes with what they want.

dorminWS wrote:

ShotgunBlast wrote:

By most measures, a $250,000 household income is substantial. It is five times the national average, and just 2.9 percent of couples earn that much or more. “For the average person in this country, a $250,000 household income is an unattainably high annual sum — they’ll never see it,” says Roberton Williams, an analyst at the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan think tank in Washington, D.C.

If $250k is not rich and only 2.9% of couples earn that much or more, this country is full of poor people.

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You have overlooked the fact that there is a difference between "poor" and "not rich".

Good catch there pardner.

I guess I got some of that Obama class warfare stuff stuck on me that just separates people into "rich" and "poor".

In the world of economics, the "takers" alway look up with envy without realizing what it requires to GET to that level!

If you're unwilling to sacrifice, or take time to educate yourself, shuddup. You're in the lot you chose. There isn't anything "lucky" about it. You have to WORK HARD to move your station in life.

Reverenddel wrote:In the world of economics, the "takers" alway look up with envy without realizing what it requires to GET to that level!

If you're unwilling to sacrifice, or take time to educate yourself, shuddup. You're in the lot you chose. There isn't anything "lucky" about it. You have to WORK HARD to move your station in life.

I might not agree with a lot of what you say, Reverenddel, but I agree with you here. I knew a guy that would preach that the only way people get to where they are is by luck. Hard work was never part of the equation, and he would rant about redistribution, "me me me". Holding down a job and working very hard to make it never occurred to him.

Education is getting to be stupid expensive, esp. for graduate degrees. My wife recently graduated with a doctoral in physical therapy, which is now mandated by most (if not all?) states for certain certifications. The pay to cost ratio isn't very friendly. She had considered going to medical school for an MD, but that's staggeringly more expensive.

So, yeah, if you invest the time, money, and hard work, you get what's due, and paying taxes to support the "takers" is crap.

250 k is a nice amount to have. Now whether that is "rich", we'll that really depends on where a person lives. But just because someone has a nice chunk of change that should not mean that I am entitled to it.

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N0VA wrote:
People complain about not making enough money, but instead of blaming their employer who could be paying them a higher wage they blame it on a politician.

And those people are free to find employment elsewhere, if they feel that the current employer doesn't pay them enough. If the wages were that unacceptable to them, I question why they agreed to them. If you agree to work at a rate of $5 an hour, then that is all that your employer owes you.

Politicians, on the other hand, vote in legislation that proves costly to the employer, which has a negative effect on that employers ability to hire new employees, expand production, issue raises, or even maintain the current count of employees.

And let's not forget the Unions. Unions promote greed and malcontent, and they agitate the workforce. They muscle employers into making costly and foolish business decisions that raise the cost of doing business, and cause the cost of the product to rise as well. Rising costs of product leads to more malcontent from the workers (who find that their cost of living has increased again), who strike once more, employers cave again, cost of business rises, cost of product rises, cost of living rises.... the cycle never ends.

And, we wonder why our jobs are getting shipped overseas...

Back on topic:

If Donald Trump or Oprah Winfrey were made to live on $250k/yr, I suspect that they'd believe that they were living in poverty. Give me $250k/yr, and I'll believe that I'm a wealthy man. It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose.

SHMIV wrote:

Back on topic:

If Donald Trump or Oprah Winfrey were made to live on $250k/yr, I suspect that they'd believe that they were living in poverty. Give me $250k/yr, and I'll believe that I'm a wealthy man. It's all a matter of perspective, I suppose.

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Yup, and your perspective on this is largely a function of your accustomed standard of living and existing committments.

Just give me 250K and you can keep the change as tax.