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school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 09:50:12
by dragonzfury050
okay, so I got a head scratcher for you guys. first some back story: I live right next to an elementary school. The school property line butts right up the my back yard.
Everyday at lunch I go home and walk my dog for a couple of miles. Our usual route takes us up my street and then we turn right and walk right down the sidewalk in front of the school.
Now these walks give me so good uninterrupted time to think, and this question popped in my head earlier this week. Does the public sidewalk technically count as school property? As in, would I get seriously busted for CCing (or even OCing) down this sidewalk.
My inclination is that it would be treated as school property, though I have not found anything that concretely supports that position. Either way, I'm not sure I'd risk it at this point lol. So, what do you guys think?
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 11:09:34
by newdovo
The law about school property is in
§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited. It's listed here:
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... 18.2-308.1
The law includes "the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds."
I would suppose that the school "grounds" would end at the property line. Is the sidewalk within the property line? Splitting hairs here, I know. More than likely, it
is part of the school property.
Even if you were to determine that the "school grounds" did not include the sidewalk, local law enforcement may not realize this. Even if legal, I'd CC here.
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 11:28:35
by OakRidgeStars
The sidewalk is city/county property only as it is a public right of way and not school property.
I am not a lawyer, but I can't see any way that this would violate the law as it is written. However, OC in that close proximity to school property would be unwise because it would certainly draw undue attention.
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 12:38:04
by FiremanBob
Related question: if you are a teacher, can you leave your firearm locked in your car in the school parking lot while at work?
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 12:43:32
by OakRidgeStars
From 18.2-308.1
The exemptions set out in � 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to (i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities; (ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose; (iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises; (iv) any law-enforcement officer; (v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 13:17:01
by newdovo
FiremanBob wrote:Related question: if you are a teacher, can you leave your firearm locked in your car in the school parking lot while at work?
The statute states this:
§ 18.2-308.1 wrote:"The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to.... (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or (vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school. For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk."
Let me state the obligatory "I am not a lawyer."
As a citizen, I suppose they could have it if they were a CHP holder, and followed the law according to (vii) above. My understanding of the intent of this statute is to ensure that someone with a CHP could drop their kid off at school, while in posession of their concealed handgun; but stay in the car and keep it concealed.
Also, as a citizen, according to (vi) above, they could have it unloaded and in the trunk, etc.
But... As an employee of the school or county, it's likely that having a gun in the car is in violation of county policy. It certainly would be for a student, even if he was of legal age to possess it.
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 16:35:52
by dragonzfury050
OakRidgeStars wrote:However, OC in that close proximity to school property would be unwise because it would certainly draw undue attention.
Exactly what my thoughts were. That's what I had been thinking as I walked the dog.
newdovo wrote:
I would suppose that the school "grounds" would end at the property line. Is the sidewalk within the property line? Splitting hairs here, I know. More than likely, it is part of the school property.
Even if you were to determine that the "school grounds" did not include the sidewalk, local law enforcement may not realize this. Even if legal, I'd CC here.
The sidewalk has grass on either side, so I guess technically it runs through the school "grounds", though, as ORS mentioned, it is city property only because it is a public walkway. Either way, if I decide to carry, it'll be concealed
All food for thought
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 22:40:03
by smltooner
I'm not sure of the answer to this question and here is an example why.
2 yrs ago, at an elementary school in our area, someone looked out a window at the school and saw a man walking in an adjacent field carrying a rifle. The school was locked down and LEOs were called. Turns out the man was on his own property, 200 yds from the school, and was walking through his own field to go hunting. He was not detained after answering questions. We are in a very rural area and not a city. I'm sure that the outcome would have been different if this had happened in an urban area instead of rural.
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 22:49:01
by gfost1
Howdy, Y'all,
Let's not forget about that pesky "Gun-Free School Zones Act", as amended circa 1994,
making it a federal crime to carry within 1000 feet of school property, except on private property or by a CC permittee who holds a permit from the same state as said school property.
Regards,
George
Re: school property
Posted: Fri, 19 Oct 2012 23:43:25
by Riana
I was in the same situation at our last rental.
When my friend and I went for our walks, we simply crossed the street just before reaching the sidewalk in front of the school, and crossed back after passing the school. Better safe than sorry, I say.
Re: school property
Posted: Thu, 28 Mar 2013 15:05:18
by Mindflayer
gfost1 wrote:Howdy, Y'all,
Let's not forget about that pesky "Gun-Free School Zones Act", as amended circa 1994,
making it a federal crime to carry within 1000 feet of school property, except on private property or by a CC permittee who holds a permit from the same state as said school property.
Regards,
George
That law was overturned by the SCOTUS. There were "clarifications" added which made it so Congress could exercise the law, but it has gone unchallenged. I would rather not be the guinea pig, but the law as it is written effectively makes it impossible for an urban or suburban person to carry at all.
I've wondered the same thing, as the sidewalks in Ashburn cut close to the schools. Even worse, the W&OD runs right behind the school, and the fields used by community for baseball and soccer - and dogs - are not marked as "School Zone".
Re: school property
Posted: Mon, 01 Apr 2013 12:02:18
by JNelson
You could also call the state police or county sheriff's office to clarify the law. I would not know the answer either.