Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Here is an interesting question for the group:

I was listening to the Guntalk podcast last weekend and Tom Gresham had a caller whose Dad had a Colt Python.

As you may or may not know, the Python was known for having one of the best (if not the best) double action trigger pulls. Tom halfheartedly suggested that Colt should reintroduce it.

Of course, there are loads of firearms people would like to see reintroduced. Just ask and you will be bombarded with a list of firearms people want to see manufactured again.

I remember reading somewhere that if all the old manufacturing equipment has been destroyed, retooled, etc. it is not possible to make the same exact firearm (you are just making one that looks the same.)

If you had the original blueprints, patent, etc. could you build an identical gun (e.g. a Python with the same exact trigger that was made in 1974?)

Or are you making a replica??

Many parts are CNC machined now as well.

Anyway, interesting philosophical question. Thoughts??

- andy

Seems to me that even if a particular model has been in continuous production, the tools, facilties and people doing the work will still have changed with time and technology. So what are you left with as the difference between a firearm that has been continuously produced and one that has been discontinued and then reintroduced? Perhaps there will be a learning curve on the restart; but then again perhaps new technology will make the newly produced versions better than the old from the first unit produced.

I guess it all depends on the particular circumstances in each case, and there probably is no way to predict which way it will cut as to whether the new versions will measure up or perhaps exceed the old.

Who would want to?

You can IMPROVE on a discontiued Firearm!

An Example: Springfield Armory M6 Scout. It's .22LR/.410 Shotgun... improved? It's .410 shotgun barrel can handle .454 casul, and .45 L/C rounds...

I would buy that in a heart beat!

That! would be nice.

My Dad told me to enter every sweepstakes that I came across. The one I still remember from my "childhood" was for a Python that came with four interchangeable barrels. It came in a presentation case with the tool kit needed.

Yeah, I'd go for a remake of that.

Every now and then, I come across a Python on Gun Trader. One day, I'll be able to drop the cash on one.

SHMIV wrote:Every now and then, I come across a Python on Gun Trader. One day, I'll be able to drop the cash on one.

I already did. It's a sweet gun. Feels great in your hand and shoots great. Will be sending it to Cylinder & Slide to have them perfect it even more. They have a 9 month waiting list but I am on it.

I still want a Python. Colt did reintroduce a model that I want (Delta Elite) but I haven't found one when I had the money. I wish S&W would start production again on their 10X6 pistols, but they're not going to, even though used ones get $700+ on Gunbroker. Someone in Australia is building new Lee Enfield No.4 MkIs in 7.62 NATO, I wish we could get those imported here.

dorminWS wrote:Seems to me that even if a particular model has been in continuous production, the tools, facilties and people doing the work will still have changed with time and technology. So what are you left with as the difference between a firearm that has been continuously produced and one that has been discontinued and then reintroduced? Perhaps there will be a learning curve on the restart; but then again perhaps new technology will make the newly produced versions better than the old from the first unit produced.

Similar comparisons could be made in catamaran manufacturing (In 1985 Coleman USA bought Hobie Cat) and guitars (CBS owned Fender and CMI owned Gibson at one time).

Manufacturing processes and innovations in technology and materials allowed some defects in workmanship and even the often-desirable quirkiness of a handmade instrument (or boat) to be limited by imperfections in the process rather than the individual.

That being said, some of the imperfections turned out to be IMPROVEMENTS which could not (or simply were not) repeated on newer models. These classics, WITH their imperfections are worth tens of thousands of dollars today.

But a brand-new Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul still sells for $3500 and is regarded as one of the finest musical instruments in the world.

So could they reissue the Colt Python? Yes. It would still use the same specs and ammunition, trigger pull and furniture... it would be a "new" model but carry the pedigree and give a new generation of enthusiasts a firearm to fall in love with.

Or something like that.

Another firearm that I wish they would reintroduce? The Feather RAV-45.

It's made by the company that makes the Feather-22, but uses Glock .45 mags, which means you can add the extender from the KRISS, and have a 25 round .45 ACP in a fair dependable package...

I like Colt Python's, but I'm a Ruger man. (shrugs) Personal preferences.

jrswanson1 wrote:I still want a Python. Colt did reintroduce a model that I want (Delta Elite) but I haven't found one when I had the money. I wish S&W would start production again on their 10X6 pistols, but they're not going to, even though used ones get $700+ on Gunbroker. Someone in Australia is building new Lee Enfield No.4 MkIs in 7.62 NATO, I wish we could get those imported here.

There are rifles called the Ishapore 2a1 in 7.62 NATO, imported years ago, I just bought one, most run $300-350 they will hold 10-12 rounds and have the buttery smooth action of the Enfield.

Talk about your philosophical questions. How many angels can dance on the tip of a front sight blade?

jrswanson1 wrote:Someone in Australia is building new Lee Enfield No.4 MkIs in 7.62 NATO, I wish we could get those imported here.

Building is right, since the receivers, barrels and wood are from Vietnam. So, importing them would require an act of Congress. I saw one of them at Green Top a few years ago, looked about how you'd expect a Vietnamese rifle to look. It was, in a word, rough. They're not even real Lee actions, just the usual modified Mauser of every other bolt action made today.

MrSmitty wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:I still want a Python. Colt did reintroduce a model that I want (Delta Elite) but I haven't found one when I had the money. I wish S&W would start production again on their 10X6 pistols, but they're not going to, even though used ones get $700+ on Gunbroker. Someone in Australia is building new Lee Enfield No.4 MkIs in 7.62 NATO, I wish we could get those imported here.

There are rifles called the Ishapore 2a1 in 7.62 NATO, imported years ago, I just bought one, most run $300-350 they will hold 10-12 rounds and have the buttery smooth action of the Enfield.

Diomed wrote:Talk about your philosophical questions. How many angels can dance on the tip of a front sight blade?

jrswanson1 wrote:Someone in Australia is building new Lee Enfield No.4 MkIs in 7.62 NATO, I wish we could get those imported here.

Building is right, since the receivers, barrels and wood are from Vietnam. So, importing them would require an act of Congress. I saw one of them at Green Top a few years ago, looked about how you'd expect a Vietnamese rifle to look. It was, in a word, rough. They're not even real Lee actions, just the usual modified Mauser of every other bolt action made today.

Nope, I have an Ishapore. These rifles from Australia are NEWLY MACHINED RIFLES, not milsurp. If you saw them a few years ago, they are not the same rifles that I'm talking about. The new Australian rifles are rear supported bolts, not forward like Mausers and most new bolt guns.

jrswanson1 wrote:If you saw them a few years ago, they are not the same rifles that I'm talking about. The new Australian rifles are rear supported bolts, not forward like Mausers and most new bolt guns.

You're talking about the Australia International Arms rifles, right? Because that's the one I saw. The version that looked like a jungle carbine in 7.62x39, if I remember correctly. They may have completely retooled from a few years ago, but since they're still not being imported that tells me they're still getting the receivers from Vietnam. I haven't been able to find good pics of the bolt, but I do know from Skennerton that it's not a real Lee bolt, with a separate bolt head, etc., instead having a one piece bolt with a plunger ejector and conventional extractor, whatever that means. Headspace is adjusted like on a modern Savage rifle.

They're not even set up for charger loading or bayonets.

Diomed wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:If you saw them a few years ago, they are not the same rifles that I'm talking about. The new Australian rifles are rear supported bolts, not forward like Mausers and most new bolt guns.

You're talking about the Australia International Arms rifles, right? Because that's the one I saw. The version that looked like a jungle carbine in 7.62x39, if I remember correctly. They may have completely retooled from a few years ago, but since they're still not being imported that tells me they're still getting the receivers from Vietnam. I haven't been able to find good pics of the bolt, but I do know from Skennerton that it's not a real Lee bolt, with a separate bolt head, etc., instead having a one piece bolt with a plunger ejector and conventional extractor, whatever that means. Headspace is adjusted like on a modern Savage rifle.

They're not even set up for charger loading or bayonets.

My bad, but you're not 100% correct. http://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=74821 The one you saw was the Sporter model. They make a No 4 Mk I clone, it looks to have a bayonet lug, and uses a detachable magazine. It's available in Canadia, $300 extra to ship it here. For that much, I'd buy that NZ Enfield for $800, but it's just money, right?

jrswanson1 wrote:My bad, but you're not 100% correct. http://www.marstar.ca/dynamic/category.jsp?catid=74821 The one you saw was the Sporter model. They make a No 4 Mk I clone, it looks to have a bayonet lug, and uses a detachable magazine. It's available in Canadia, $300 extra to ship it here. For that much, I'd buy that NZ Enfield for $800, but it's just money, right?

If their "No. 4 Mk 4" has a bayonet lug, it's a change from the version that got into the States way back when. Anyway, I'd love to know if Marstar has had any successful imports of those into the US. The fact that no one is importing them tells me it's still got unacceptable Vietnamese parts in it. But if you wanted to possibly throw away money, you could indeed buy one and see if you can get a Form 6 approved for it (I'd throw in a Norinco M14 and 1911 at the same time: if they made it in you could sell them at a huge markup and pay for the AIA rifle).