Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I once used deadly force against an armed robber/rapist. People analyze the law, and think it will guide them in lethal encounters, but it won’t. My district attorney was satisfied that my incident was within the bounds of the law, because it was an offender fleeing from a violent crime that I actually witnessed. Legally of course, he was correct. But that wasn’t the reason I shot.

I had many people tell me that they don’t know if they could have done it emotionally, because he was running away and I couldn’t have either if he was just running, that is.

But, what “pulled the trigger in my head”, was that he was running with a gun, towards cops that could not see what I had seen. And furthermore, I knew they were in mortal danger. They were also in a bad position to defend themselves because there were also many innocent bystanders in the area.

The instant that all became clear to me, I fired the shotgun.

The whole incident took 28 seconds.

remainder of article at link:

http://www.backdoorsurvival.com/index.p ... ple-shoot/

Found this pretty interesting.

Kreutz wrote:The whole incident took 28 seconds.

How far can someone run in 28 seconds?. That must be one hell of a long range shotgun load.

I think most people are capable but then again some people in the face of fear or extreme duress honestly completely freeze.

OakRidgeStars wrote:

Kreutz wrote:The whole incident took 28 seconds.

How far can someone run in 28 seconds?.

About 400 feet, give or take based on the rough estimate using the Tueller Drill.

ProShooter wrote:

OakRidgeStars wrote:

Kreutz wrote:The whole incident took 28 seconds.

How far can someone run in 28 seconds?.

About 400 feet, give or take based on the rough estimate using the Tueller Drill.

That's assuming he was running for all 28. As described it sounds like there was some kinda of incident and then running. So I doubt there was 28 seconds of running.

That was an interesting article. The writer points out several observations that I have made, myself. It was interesting to read them from someone who had actually been in a position where he had to make a "shoot or no shoot" decision.

OakRidgeStars wrote:

Kreutz wrote:The whole incident took 28 seconds.

How far can someone run in 28 seconds?. That must be one hell of a long range shotgun load.

You assume the shooter stood in one spot, watching the bad guy run away from him for 28 seconds.

For all we know, he saw the bad guy commit the act some distance away, and the bad guy ran towards him for 28 seconds. Or he was chasing the bad guy the whole time, and so never was more than several yards behind him.

He does not explain the particular facts and circumstances.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think most people are capable but then again some people in the face of fear or extreme duress honestly completely freeze.

IMHO, there should be a lot of soul searching before deciding to CC or have a home defense firearm because not everyone can handle it. Even those with training often freeze when it counts.

Honostly I believe I could pull the trigger, I've been scared before where your heart races. All it took was one noise behind me and before I knew it I had spun around to face it, with surge of energy pumping through me, but it was just my imagination. When I looked down I saw my hands were clinched into fists. It was surreal I was sort of like a wolf that had been cornered and my instincts had taken over.

But it's more than that I would guess, the emotions afterwards you would have to deal with. Such as the fact you took a life or the more immediate what happens now when the cops come.

I can't help but wonder in some morbid fantasy if what they say is true that the first kill is the hardest? Though I couldn't imagine taking more than one life because even that would be too many.

gunderwood wrote:IMHO, there should be a lot of soul searching before deciding to CC or have a home defense firearm because not everyone can handle it. Even those with training often freeze when it counts.

^^^
THIS

...i'd only add that oc should merit the same soul searching.

gunderwood wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I think most people are capable but then again some people in the face of fear or extreme duress honestly completely freeze.

IMHO, there should be a lot of soul searching before deciding to CC or have a home defense firearm because not everyone can handle it. Even those with training often freeze when it counts.

I think "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell should be required reading for defensive carry... OC or CC...

Just my $.02

Soul Searching hmmmmm---well I do not think that carrying a gun should be taken lightly. It is a very serious thing to carry. But really--soul searching--not the term I would have used, careful consideration, maybe? When I began to investigate self defense a few years ago, it took me .5 seconds to decide that yes my children's and my life is worth defending against a person intent on doing harm. My life and my children's lives are, additionally, worth the training it takes to become moderately proficient with firearm and to continue educating myself and training myself. Heaven forbid that I should ever EVER have to use my firearm, but if someone is trying to kill/maim/steal me and mine I will stop the threat. If the perpetrator loses his life in the process of me stopping him from committing serious injury to my family and mine it was his choice not mine that led to this.

I think of myself (and most people think of me) as a very "nice" person, however there is a reason my name online is mamabearCali. Do not mess with the mama bear and her cubs.

Let's all be honost shall we, the chances of needing a gun are not likely so wearing a gun for most is a statement. To others it is more practical than necessity because they would need a "trail gun" to fend off vermin or finish off prey.

Honostly I have absolutly no need for a gun, no one is out to get me nor am I fearful they are. As a matter of fact it is really a curiosity to me as to how people would act around someone with a gun, let alone someone armed and acting friendly. Indeed you don't often see someone so armed in my neck of the woods.

Though there is always that 1% chance encounter which could mean life or death. Should my policy of avoid and evade fail, my plan B is if I have to draw my gun and they continue to advance they're going to die. However I won't fire on someone who is retreating, call it a matter of principle but I see it as well made choice.

I think training is rather superfluous myself because with tool so simple it is ingenius as the gun what further training would you need to know besides point it and fire and let your instincts do the rest. Sure being accurate will help you not miss but really if you're paniced and afraid, and you will be, all the tight grouping on sheets of paper in the world won't help you.

Just saying, Jon

thekinetic wrote:Let's all be honost shall we, the chances of needing a gun are not likely so wearing a gun for most is a statement. To others it is more practical than necessity because they would need a "trail gun" to fend off vermin or finish off prey.

You are assuming quite a bit about a quite a few people. If I were going carry to "make a statement" I would open carry. If I was looking for a trail gun I would not carry a .45 acp--a smaller lighter 9mm would do just fine. I suppose you could say I am making a statement, but a statement that will only be made to a criminal intent on hurting me and mine. "Not today buddy, go find a better target."

thekinetic wrote:Honostly I have absolutely no need for a gun, no one is out to get me nor am I fearful they are. As a matter of fact it is really a curiosity to me as to how people would act around someone with a gun, let alone someone armed and acting friendly. Indeed you don't often see someone so armed in my neck of the woods.

Again you are putting yourself in everyone's shoes, and assuming quite a bit. Here you don't "see" many guns, but if you were walking into my Sunday School class at a social I know of at least 3 possibly 4 guns that are in the room. Additionally if you met me and I was carrying, you would have absolutely no idea that I was. How do people act around a gun--the same way they do when they are not around guns. Honest decent people have nothing to fear from honest decent people carrying.

thekinetic wrote: Though there is always that 1% chance encounter which could mean life or death. Should my policy of avoid and evade fail, my plan B is if I have to draw my gun and they continue to advance they're going to die. However I won't fire on someone who is retreating, call it a matter of principle but I see it as well made choice.

Well having faced that 1% twice in my life and only gotten away by the skin of my teeth I know it can happen, and while you may be able to evade and avoid, think about someone in a different situation than you. An elderly person who can't walk fast, a person with a disability, a person, like me, that is pregnant with 3 children in tow, two of which are so young that they cannot run. Evading and avoiding is a great plan--unless you are unable to do so. Your chances of being attacked are 0% right up until the moment it is 100%.

thekinetic wrote:I think training is rather superfluous myself because with tool so simple it is ingenius as the gun what further training would you need to know besides point it and fire and let your instincts do the rest. Sure being accurate will help you not miss but really if you're paniced and afraid, and you will be, all the tight grouping on sheets of paper in the world won't help you.

Just saying, Jon

Just point and fire--really and what happens if you do that and have a misfire. What happens if you have not trained enough to have overcome being recoil shy. What if there is more than one target and you have to reload? How do you make permanent safe handling skills without practice. Again you are assuming a lot about a lot of people. I did not cut my teeth on gun handling so when I started shooting I had precious few instincts. A tool is only effective if you know how to use it. The only way you are going to be effective at using in a life and death situation is if you have developed those skills to muscle memory so that you can shoot the target when it is life and death. When your adrenaline is pumping you had better know what you are doing. The only way anyone is going to have a prayer of doing that is by practice.

You are taking your situation and experiences and putting it like a blanket over many many people some of whom do not have the same abilities/experiences that you have.

[/quote]You are taking your situation and experiences and putting it like a blanket over many many people some of whom do not have the same abilities/experiences that you have.[/quote]

Good job and well said MamaBear!!!!!
So many people only see everything from their point of view. Many anti's think that way. Your eloquent writing made excellent points. My children are grown, but I have injuries. To look at me you wouldn't guess, but I can't defend myself by running, using martial arts, etc. Avoiding? So where is safe? The grocery store? Gas station? Big dept stores? I don't like thinking about the dangers out there, but I also realize that I can't predict them(who can predict when & where?) but I do think about them & try to avoid them. My favorite saying is "I hate putting out fires, I'd rather smother the spark it before it becomes a fire."

I believe that CC is an opportunity to "smother that spark" before it is a fire that burns me & mine.

I know I can because I almost did and I wasn't shaking or scared during or afterwards. A neighbor girl came to the front door of my apartment and said a man wa breaking down the back door of her apartment. Her and her brother, both teenagers, were home alone and her brother had some "words' with a man in the parking lot. I grabbed my .410 bolt action shotgun (which I kept loaded) and headed up the front steps. I got to the back door just befre the guy broke the door. The neighbor boy was standing there with a baseball bat and I told him to back me up. The daughter had called police and we knew they were on their way. This guy (kind of big) finally came flying through the door and lands on the kitchen floor with the barrel of the .410 about 6 inches from his nose. All I said was don't move. He put his hands up and said, "I'm cool." He really was...he calmed down immediately. But if he would of tried something while we waited for the police, I would have pulled the trigger. Like I said, I wasn't scared, I wasn't shaking and I had confidence in my abilities. I think it's because I've been around guns all of my life, I've been in the Army and I have no illusions about what a gun can do.

I agree with thekinetic in that a gun really is a simple thing; it is just point and click. But mamabear is right in that when your nerves are all jangled you might not grab it right, or fumble it, drop it, whatever. Some folks might be awesome ninja death assassins and could calmly headshot an entire flashmob...but most of us are gonna freeze for a second then react.

The average person really doesn't need to train as though he is gonna single handedly invade North Korea, but some basic training and repetition is necessary.

I got my CHP in spring, been carrying with light clothes pants pocket carry. Now its cooler out I've just started wearing a jacket on and been carrying in my jacket pocket (its comfier).....if attacked I'd reach for my pants pocket despite the hunk of metal in my jacket pocket, because thats where I'm used to reaching for. Gotta reset the brain.

Kreutz wrote:I agree with thekinetic in that a gun really is a simple thing; it is just point and click. But mamabear is right in that when your nerves are all jangled you might not grab it right, or fumble it, drop it, whatever. Some folks might be awesome ninja death assassins and could calmly headshot an entire flashmob...but most of us are gonna freeze for a second then react.

The average person really doesn't need to train as though he is gonna single handedly invade North Korea, but some basic training and repetition is necessary.

I got my CHP in spring, been carrying with light clothes pants pocket carry. Now its cooler out I've just started wearing a jacket on and been carrying in my jacket pocket (its comfier).....if attacked I'd reach for my pants pocket despite the hunk of metal in my jacket pocket, because thats where I'm used to reaching for. Gotta reset the brain.

Training is a most and the more proficient you can be the more it helps. Most people when they shoot there first gun(handguns especially) do nearly everything wrong. Poor grip, trigger jerking, recoil anticipation, ect. I think anyone who who old enough to remember did a fair bit of those things when shooting there first gun, I know I did, heck I'm still not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I'm a lot better shooter than I was when I started.

Also I think a LOT of people get mentally locked into on situation for whatever reason. They assume their target will be directly in front of them,they assume that one or two rounds will stop the guy, that the guy wouldn't be using cover, maybe even using a hostage, the even assume there they will only be one threat.

That fact is you never know what may happen. You could be in the statistically likely situation where the guy is dead center in front at 7 yards and he's a poor shot. Or you might have a mass shooter that is 20 yards away and on the move, maybe even using cover, or worse body armor. If that happens, and you haven't trained well, your screwed.

Palladin wrote:I think "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell should be required reading for defensive carry... OC or CC...

Just my $.02

+1 This book goes discusses how people make snap judgments; very good food for thought.

It can be beneficial to train using real life situations. Using a moving target, using cover, laying on your back, and multiple assailants are just a few. No situation will be like any other one. It sure won't involve a nice stationary target with a bench that will catch your magazines. Speaking of which, most civilians will never be in a firefight, much less one that lasts more than 60 seconds. Deliberate, purposeful actions must be done with precision. The best thing to have is the confidence to make the appropriate decisions as what you decide will affect the rest of yours and anyone involved lives. Having bullets coming at you is an experience that can dispel your confidence as well as your moral. This is something that cannot be trained for. Just know that the first thing to consider is your safety as you are useless to anyone if you are dead. Take cover, draw your weapon, and assess the situation. Proceed with your decided action.