Need Optics advise

[jrswanson1]

I'm looking to try my hand at long range shooting (1k+ yards). Got the rifle, I need a mil-reticle scope. Prices are pretty out there, just looking for the best bang for my buck. Any suggestions?

Jim

[grumpyMSG]

To answer this question properly you need to give a little more information so that the scope is suitable for the application. It takes a stronger scope to put up with the recoil from a .50 BMG versus .308 Winchester.

Traditionally the Military used what was called a Mil-dot reticle, the reticle's primary purpose was to be used as a tool in estimating range. It's secondary purpose was to aid in quick follow up shots, making holdover/ windage estimates easier. There are other reticles that are intended to do similar things such as Leupold's TMR (Tactical Milling Reticle) and Horus' H58 and H59 reticles.

The other thing to consider is magnification. The rule of thumb that the Military had used was 1X for 100 meters at maximum range, so 10X is was appropriate for the M40/24 Rifles in 7.62MM at 1000 meters. It was a good compromise for a man size target. Greater magnification would slow down target engagement at shorter ranges due to the smaller fields of view on higher magnification scopes. So if you are trying to engage a black target on white paper a higher power scope would make for smaller groups and it would help with engaging smaller targets like groundhogs, but your engagement times might be longer,

You can talk to a dozen different people and get a dozen different answers as to who makes the scope you want. I am sure you will here Leupold, Schmidt and Bender, Zeuss, Horus, Nightforce, Hensoldt and other higher priced scopes, but for shooting more than a half a mile you need quality glass. Some folks will tell you how great Tasco, Bushell and various other manufacturers are. For the task you are talking I hope you are prepared to part with $1000-2,000 minimum. I personally like Leupolds, they are heavy but tough and durable and there are a ton of them out there on M24s an M110s in the Army inventory, and there is a lot of truth to an Infantryman being able to break a steel ball with a rubber hammer while playing in the sandbox...

[jdonovan]

as grumpy said, fill in some details for us.

A variable power scope is going to put you back a grand. A fixed 10x will be 1/2 that. Any less and you'll not be happy when you get to the line.

The other thing you'll quickly figure out is hitting the target reliably and in small groups is as much about wind dope as gear.... you'll never shoot a lot of X's with an AK at 1000, but just getting an AI in .338 doesn't magically ensure hits either.

[jrswanson1]

I'm running a 300 WinMag out of a Remington 700 Sendero II. Out of the box, a Bell & Carlson Stock, pillar bedded action, fluted heavy barrel. I'm going to be taking classes at Central Virginia Tactical after I save up for the scope. It currently has a Leupold VXII with a plain duplex crosshair setup, which I'm planning on selling after I break the news I purchased said rifle to my loving wife I'm currently a reloader, have been for 22 years now. I've shot out to 500 yards with semi-autos, this is my first long range rifle. I learned how to shoot rifles in the four basic positions through the NRA Junior Marksmanship program back in 1980. Just really trying to extend my range, and finding decent glass that doesn't take my entire pay check.

Jim

[Palladin]

Nothing but good stuff with Vern...

Keep us posted.

[jdonovan]

I'm running a 300 WinMag out of a Remington 700 Sendero II.
Just really trying to extend my range, and finding decent glass that doesn't take my entire pay check.

Well not knowing what your paycheck is, here are some suggestions:

first get a scope with reticle and adjustments in the same system moa/moa or mil/mill. I find a mixed system is ripe for making the wrong adjustments.

I decided on a bushnell 3200 6-24 for my get-started scope, so far have been reasonably happy with it. Its a $1000 scope, so I wasn't expecting the world, but its perfectly serviceable for my needs.

There is a lot of good reading to be had on snipershide on optics. Take a few evenings over there, and search and read.

If $1000 is more than you want to spend, I'd focus on 10-16x fixed power. You just aren't going to find that much in good variable power optics as you drop into the 400-600 range.

Do some reading on first focal plane reticles and decide if you want a FFP scope.

I've heard nothing but good stuff about Vern, and hope to get down that way some day and get some training.

[gunderwood]

Vern's on Snipers Paradise and IIRC he has had good things to say about the SWFA and IOR scopes for the money. You really need to give us a price range. My personal preference is:

<$300: Bushnell 3200 Tactical 10x
<$1k: SWFA
$1-1.5k: IOR
$1.5-2k: NightForce
>2.5k: they are all spectacular, but they have strengths and weaknesses.

That's not to say there aren't lots of other good scopes out there which may be better depending on how you value their features.

A fixed power 10x is best unless you are spending big money. FFP is very nice, but it's going to cost you. If you're paying more than $1k or so you should be able to get Mil/Mil, otherwise MOA/MOA is better than Mil/MOA. I say that, but the cheap SWFA is set up that way...in the end it's about the total package. Also, don't skimp on the rings.

[jrswanson1]

Okay, I'm looking at $1500 or less. That's half my paycheck. Maybe more. I'd like mil/mil, just trying to figure out if I should get a Nightforce or if there were better options out there. I'm pretty sure our snipers running bolt guns are using fixed 10x scopes. I'd really prefer buying US made products. Anything in the $1500 range anyone here can recommend? I may be able to up that if I can sell the current Leupold.

Jim

[jdonovan]

You've got some nice options from SWFA and IOR at the $1500 mark, but I'd rather save a bit longer and get the USO, or Nightforce at the 2k mark.

If you're not sure how much long-range work you'll be doing, I'd be more comfortable in the 800-1200 range, and if it dosen't pan out, then you don't have quite so much tied up in glass.

[VAman]

Best bang for the buck is probably one of the SWFA SS scopes.

[jrswanson1]

Best bang for the buck is probably one of the SWFA SS scopes.

I just joined up at Sniper's Hide, they're running an SWFA group buy. I think I'll go with one of theirs and if I really get into long range shooting I'll move up to the Nightforce. Anyone want a Leupold VX-II? $300 with rings!

Jim

[jdonovan]

just got an email from midway...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/de ... ber=262045

Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 6-24x 50mm Side Focus 1/10 MIL Adjustments First Focal Illuminated Green Mil-Dot Reticle

Heck of a lot of scope for $700

same scope I've got on my .338 which I've been very happy with.... sure a USO would be nice, but at 3x as much thats a lot of practice ammo.

[jrswanson1]

just got an email from midway...

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/de ... ber=262045

Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 6-24x 50mm Side Focus 1/10 MIL Adjustments First Focal Illuminated Green Mil-Dot Reticle

Heck of a lot of scope for $700

same scope I've got on my .338 which I've been very happy with.... sure a USO would be nice, but at 3x as much thats a lot of practice ammo.

I'm glad I don't have gun money until next week. I'll be picking that up instead. Still need to sell the current scope and rings.

Jim

[jdonovan]

I'm glad I don't have gun money until next week. I'll be picking that up instead. Still need to sell the current scope and rings.

Glad we could help ya find something that will work for you.

[jrswanson1]

I'm glad I don't have gun money until next week. I'll be picking that up instead. Still need to sell the current scope and rings.

Glad we could help ya find something that will work for you.

$800 for another optic. Funny thing is, I bought the rifle "used" (it's hasn't been fired since the factory) with scope and rings mounted, for $800. If I manage to sell the scope for $300, then the rifle nets to be $500. For a rifle, new from Bud's, that's $1100. Need to take pics of the current scope and rings and sell them off.

Jim

[spadesofcolumbia]

Sightron offers a nice selection of MilDot based models for just about any budget and a sweet warranty of replacement instead of fixing.