Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

gatlingun6 wrote:

GS78 wrote:

WildBill44 wrote: Can you imagine what would happen if several hundred Christians built and occupied such a fenced compound and refused to allow anyone in but their members?

That happened last year in Utah I believe, The feds surrounded the place and then took all the children and made them wards of the state....maybe someone near red barn can make an anonymous phone call saying those muslim girls are being abused.....then the feds would have to go in .......



I doubt the fbi had a mole, regardless of what they say publicly. That group was a tight knit group , so tight even the neighbors didn't realize what they were up to. The fbi took its orders from a pro radical muslim group, and the Southern Law and Poverty center{similar to the ACLU,} , another apologist organization for the enemies of this country.

And GS78 slips farther and farther into the twilight zone with his over the top accusations, and conspiracy theories. I actually deleted what I was going to say. I'll just wait with bated breathe to see just how far you stray into a dimension of your own creation. Are you sure you don't want to wait a bit and at least hear the evidence? What's your problem with the SLPC anyway?
Gat6

Did you have anything intelligent to add jimmy, or just the usaul hate speech? You liberals are very intolerant.

gatlingun6 wrote:

Vahunter wrote:WildBill did you know they patrol the perimeter in Red House carrying AK's ? And a couple of them were arrested after 911 for supplying firearms to terriosts. Plus the main road in was named after the terriost that ordered Daniel Pearle beheaded.

As long as the weapons had no automatic capability, what's the problem? Isn't it just law abiding citizens patrolling their property? Shouldn't you all be supporting their right to do that? Can anyone please point me to the indictments, and the subsequent trial information on the 2 who sold firearms to terrorists? Is the main road private or public? If it's private why would you support the government coercing the owner to change the name of something on his property. If it's a State road, VA does not need a reason they can just change it as far as I know.

Back to a private road. Doesn't the owner have a 1st Amendment right to name the road whatever he wants? Btw what is the address of this place and the name of the road in question.

Gat6

Why do you always take the side of enemies of the USA? not that I care really jimmy, I just wonder. Did you not recieve the parade you thought you deserved for some imagined accomplishment?

Double posting Jim? You must be getting busy or losing it...

WildBill44 wrote:Perhaps gat6 resides in a compound near Red House, VA????

So what if I do, is there a problem with other Americans minding their own business on their own property? Oh, I keep forgetting your view of the Constitution. You think the Preamble states that the document is only applicable to certain people. It's truly odd how so called patriots don't stand up for other Americans for no other reason than their religion is different.

Gat6

[quote="GS78"]VIRGINIA (7)
Constitution Party
Vienna
Oath Keepers
Statewide
U.S. National Party
Oakton
Virginia Citizens Militia *
Roanoke
We Are Change
ShenandoahStatewide
We the People
Statewide

These are called "patriot groups" by the liberal watchdog Southern Law and Poverty Center, along with hundreds of other groups they are watching across the nation, any group that espouses ideology considered to even lean right,(strangely enough BY the government) is considered to be a hate group.

If I were not in this forum, I wonder would anyone hold GS78 to the same standard he wants others to achieve. Without further editorial comment. Here's what SPLC actually wrote:

Active 'Patriot' Groups in the United States in 2009

The Intelligence Project identified 512 "Patriot" groups that were active in 2009. Of these groups, 127 were militias, marked with an asterisk, and the remainder includes "common-law" courts, publishers, ministries and citizens' groups. Generally, Patriot groups define themselves as opposed to the "New World Order," engage in groundless conspiracy theorizing, or advocate or adhere to extreme antigovernment doctrines. Listing here does not imply that the groups themselves advocate or engage in violence or other criminal activities, or are racist. The list was compiled from field reports, Patriot publications, the Internet, law enforcement sources and news reports. Groups are identified by the city, county or region where they are located.

So SPLC wrote something different than what GS78 did. Which government report are you citing that names the same groups? If you actually read the ideology of ea listed group they do not all lean right.

This GS78 statement is a pure unadulterated LIE "any group that espouses ideology considered to even lean right,(strangely enough BY the government) is considered to be a hate group". But, that's to be expected. Having said that I will gladly apologize when GS78 references or gives us the link to the government intelligence report which states that right leaning organizations such as the following are hate groups.
American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC)
Family Research Council
American Conservative Union
Club For Growth
Federalist Society
Eagle Forum
Focus on the Family
I'll stop here because it's a silly exercise. There are hundreds of right leaning groups none of which are on any government "Hate Group" list. Similarly there are hundreds of left leaning groups as well.

What on earth is the real source of your over arching anger at government?? Were you this angry at every President from Reagan to Obama? Do you believe in or reject Article VI to the Constitution? Please can you give an unequivocal answer to the following question: As an American citizen what rights did you have on 1 Apr 2008 that you no longer had on 1 Apr 2010.

Gat6

gatlingun6 wrote:[ What on earth is the real source of your over arching anger at government?? Were you this angry at every President from Reagan to Obama? Do you believe in or reject Article VI to the Constitution? Please can you give an unequivocal answer to the following question: As an American citizen what rights did you have on 1 Apr 2008 that you no longer had on 1 Apr 2010.

Gat6

against govt jimmie? no I am not against govt, that would make me equivilent to those snot faced liberal punk anarchists we always see crying about climate change, and brown leaves on trees........ funny you would write something like this the same day that the leftwing media,also known as the dinosaur media and the alphabet media, are beginning to change their mantra from " that christian militia..........to that anti-government milita"..... very telling, looks like you got the memo huh jamie. The problem I have is that this administration is the most corrupt since 1972. This administration and congress are actually working against the American people. My copy of the Constitution says thats when its time to change the form of government we have, not simply because our president is more comfortable with communism than he is with free market capitalism, I mean c'mon jay-jay, he took a sabaticle to write his book in Indonesia, why? as his wife said " We needed to find a place where barrack felt comfortable".....

gatlingun6 wrote:

WildBill44 wrote:Perhaps gat6 resides in a compound near Red House, VA????

So what if I do, is there a problem with other Americans minding their own business on their own property? Oh, I keep forgetting your view of the Constitution. You think the Preamble states that the document is only applicable to certain people. It's truly odd how so called patriots don't stand up for other Americans for no other reason than their religion is different.

Gat6

Compounds such as Red House are known for their being islamic training camps. I wonder why our government dont raid a couple of them. You ever wonder that Jim. Of course you dont because in your world they arent doing anything wrong. They are persecuted wrongly by Americans like myself and deserve to be left alone to go about their business. And yes, before you reply no other administration has gone after them either.

For your edification I think most politicians suck these days - not just dems, buts some repubs too. They've all used their elected positions to create too much power and its gone to their head. We are merely pawns in their game.

Surely you believe that our Founders set up the Constitution so federal government would be limited and most of the power would be held by the people and the states????

allingeneral wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:Sounds like a huge mess to me, it also sounds as if both sides have no tolerance for the other side which is just asking for trouble. An extremist of any religion or belief has always proven to be a bad thing as history has shown over and over again. But like they say there's one in every crowd, lol.

I don't believe what the media and feds are putting out .

Can you be a bit more specific? What don't you believe that the feds are putting out? Is the indictment fabricated? Are the facts stated in the indictment made up and are false? Finally, you don't believe what media? Is there any media you care to reference putting out accurate information?
Gat6[/quote]

It's not the specifics that are at issue - it's the angle, the spin - the little editorial comments that the media chooses to add wherever it so desires that makes a once true and believable story into a fairy tale - all in the name of sensationalism and attempts at garnering an audience.[/quote]

allingeneral:
I thought one of your earlier posts was pretty fair about the discourse and commentary in the VGOF. However, don't you think fairness dictates that slander and slurs should have some degree of specificity? Rarely is there a post that does contain the phrase THE MEDIA followed by something negative. Sometimes it's stated as THE MAIN STREAM MEDIA or MSM. It seems that this contempt for THE MEDIA reflects what I call the "The Mirror Image Syndrome" or mirroring. That means any story we read anywhere is filtered through our biases after which we wind up blaming THE MEDIA when our bias is the real issue.

If we are aware of our biases it's not a big problem because we can account for them. The problem comes when we mistakenly believe we are bias free. Essentially we become angry with THE MEDIA not because the story was incorrect or made up, but because it was presented in a way our bias filters didn't accept.

I was not in Michigan, I was not the undercover agent, and I was not on the grand jury, I did not see the You Tube video that first brought this group to law enforcement's attention, I played no part in the subsequent investigation, I did not write the indictment, I do not work for the federal attorney general in Detroit, and I am not a reporter covering the story. As far as I know, our experience with this case is the same. Yet some of you are making all sorts of claims about government malfeasance, and press duplicity.

When I first heard about the story I looked for the indictment and read it. I looked up the applicable statutes and read them too. Since then I have read articles from all over the country and internationally about this same story. Against this I am aware there are times when the government overreacts or flat gets it wrong. I am also aware that the average reporter attempts to get the story right based on what they have been able to find out from their sources. The 3rd piece and 4th part of the puzzle are advocacy journalists and radio talking heads who invariably push a certain point of view.

Against this backdrop, it's perfectly reasonable to ask what is the source of your opinion that so diverges from the vast majority of the Hutaree stories. What and where did you read that has some of you sure, as you wrote, oh these were just a bunch of guys who like to hunt running around in the woods. When I get the answer that essentially says: The real problem is the spin of THE MEDIA that's a red flag. The Metro area has 2 major newspapers, the Times and the Post. In this area they are the Main Stream Print Media, are you telling me that the Post and the Times are the problem?

I suspect whether the government can prove its case will shift to the actions of the informant. Did he lead or simply follow. I also suspect that the only strategy with any chance of success will be to demonize the informant. To be continued, we'll see.

Gat6

allingeneral wrote:

GS78 wrote:.....careful....

mmhhmmmmm... We don't want to be on that list - not even jokingly. I'm glad that we are able to have good and decent discussions about politics and laws without tipping the scales and going overboard. I consider this forum to be conservative for the most part, but not radically so. We also have some liberal types who chime in from time to time, and we welcome that.

As long as we remain respectful of the government (Federal, State and local) and government processes, then we shouldn't have a problem. I think we do a good job staying within the confines of our freedoms.

Just remember that your freedom ends where someone else's freedom begins.

You are exactly right! Although there are some issues I have doubts about. Anyway good post.
Gat6

GS78 wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:Sounds like a huge mess to me, it also sounds as if both sides have no tolerance for the other side which is just asking for trouble. An extremist of any religion or belief has always proven to be a bad thing as history has shown over and over again. But like they say there's one in every crowd, lol.

I don't believe what the media and feds are putting out .

Can you be a bit more specific? What don't you believe that the feds are putting out? Is the indictment fabricated? Are the facts stated in the indictment made up and are false? Finally, you don't believe what media? Is there any media you care to reference putting out accurate information?
Gat6[/quote]
No jimmy, I don't rely on others to become informed, haven't since I was .....probably your age. I have read the indictment. I stand by my post.[/quote]

So you did read the indictment, good for you. After reading them, which charges are trumped up or false? There are self styled militias all across the country, so why did the Feds single out Hutaree? Why are all the other militias running away from Hutaree. Who ordered the feds to go out and arrest a militia or was the order go arrest a Christian Militia? Why now?

Timothy McVey, Nichols, et al were probably called the gang that couldn't shoot straight too. You do remember how some heard their boasts and concluded they are all talk and no action. From afar, enlighten the rest of us as to how you know Hutaree were no threat to anyone.

In closing if you are not relying on others then you are uninformed and that accounts for much of what you say. Unless you are a member of Hutaree what you know had to come from someone else. News stories don't write themselves. The real questions to answer is what are your sources, who or what source, or sources do you believe, and what filters of your own do you pass information through before you arrive at your very own conclusion.

I anxiously await your considered reply with "BATED breathe". Bated is actually correct because it comes from the word "abated" which is to reduce and lessen. How on earth would you "BAIT" your breathe. Read the Merchant of Venice, don't take my word for it. Let's not mess with Shakespeare.

Gat6

GS78 wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:

Vahunter wrote:WildBill did you know they patrol the perimeter in Red House carrying AK's ? And a couple of them were arrested after 911 for supplying firearms to terriosts. Plus the main road in was named after the terriost that ordered Daniel Pearle beheaded.

As long as the weapons had no automatic capability, what's the problem? Isn't it just law abiding citizens patrolling their property? Shouldn't you all be supporting their right to do that? Can anyone please point me to the indictments, and the subsequent trial information on the 2 who sold firearms to terrorists? Is the main road private or public? If it's private why would you support the government coercing the owner to change the name of something on his property. If it's a State road, VA does not need a reason they can just change it as far as I know.

Back to a private road. Doesn't the owner have a 1st Amendment right to name the road whatever he wants? Btw what is the address of this place and the name of the road in question.

Gat6

Why do you always take the side of enemies of the USA? not that I care really jimmy, I just wonder. Did you not recieve the parade you thought you deserved for some imagined accomplishment?

Mr GS78:
When you put up the link to an indictment, trial and conviction of any Muslim who live in the Red Post community for selling weapons to terrorists, or for terrorist activities I will be the first to declare them enemies of the State. I'll even accept your proof provided the evidence is clear and convincing. I think we get by now that you would be happy if every Muslim in America either left the country or converted to Christianity. I still don't get why you castigate this administration for not following the Constitution when you don't believe in the Constitution. Initially I thought you were an Anti-Federalist because that's the position you display whenever you write about the Constitution.

Now, however, since you do not believe that the Bill of Rights is applicable to Muslims I don't know. What camp is a person in when they are neither a Federalist nor an Anti-Federalist? That's puzzling

Gat6

GS78 wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:[ What on earth is the real source of your over arching anger at government?? Were you this angry at every President from Reagan to Obama? Do you believe in or reject Article VI to the Constitution? Please can you give an unequivocal answer to the following question: As an American citizen what rights did you have on 1 Apr 2008 that you no longer had on 1 Apr 2010.

Gat6

against govt jimmie? no I am not against govt, that would make me equivilent to those snot faced liberal punk anarchists we always see crying about climate change, and brown leaves on trees........ funny you would write something like this the same day that the leftwing media,also known as the dinosaur media and the alphabet media, are beginning to change their mantra from " that christian militia..........to that anti-government milita"..... very telling, looks like you got the memo huh jamie. The problem I have is that this administration is the most corrupt since 1972. This administration and congress are actually working against the American people. My copy of the Constitution says thats when its time to change the form of government we have, not simply because our president is more comfortable with communism than he is with free market capitalism, I mean c'mon jay-jay, he took a sabaticle to write his book in Indonesia, why? as his wife said " We needed to find a place where barrack felt comfortable".....

Your silence is deafening. I have respectfully asked you a series of questions. They were not trick questions, or designed to trip you up. They are a sincere attempt to find out what sources are driving your opinions on the Hutaree Militia, The Muslims around Red Post, and your views on specific parts of the Constitution. In answer to sincere questions what do I get in return? An outpouring of commentary that has nothing to do with any of my questions and with ever increasing anger and stridency in tone.

In the most recent post you wrote this: "this administration is the most corrupt since 1972". That is a stark statement with little wiggle room. In 1972 the President was Richard Nixon. Will you explain with specifics why that's a true statement, a statement of fact. What is your standard for corruption? Is it simply your opinion? Is it based on criminal prosecutions? Is it based on ethics violations? Is it based on law illegality, what's the basis for your allegations. Could you please provide the links, so we can examine the same evidence you read? Who knows we might reach the conclusions.

You are measuring President Obama's administration against what historians have said is one of the most if not the most criminal in history. The Nixon's administration engaged in burglaries,The President Orchestrated a cover up of criminal activity, he authorized a secret war in Cambodia, He illegally wiretapped reporters and government employees, he authorized a massive campaign to sabotage his political opposition, he used the IRS to go after an enemies list he had created, he fired government employees to cover up his crimes, he lied to the American people and the Congress about the war and his involvement in the Watergate cover-up. Finally he resigned rather than be impeached. If he had not resigned Republicans and Democrats were poised to do just that. So we await your evidence that the current President exceeds all this.

While you are at it. How can you say the President and the Congress are going against the American people? What is your evidence of that, and please don't cite a poll. Our government does not run on polls. The President of the United States is elected to do what is best for the country. We do not elect Presidents to simply obey some poll. Did President Bush follow the will of the American people when he didn't follow get out of Iraq?

Your comment about communism is not worthy of any question. Why ask a question when the accusation shows that you lack even the most basic understanding of communism.

Finally, it's irrelevant where he went to write his book. I don't know where he went and like most Americans who made it a best seller they don't care either.

Gat6

@gatlingun6 - there are no indictments against the muslim brothers in Red House. Why not? My guess is our government in all of their infinite wisdom dont want to get slammed with a profiling accusation. By our government in that context I mean since they've been there to include left and right. Regarding the current administration I am convinced they have elevated the rights of muslims over simple Americans....

@Jay - the trolls in question is really only one. He (or she) can be dealt with quite easily, but that would be no fun...and regarding such punitive action I must recuse myself from that for reasons which should be obvious....until such time that someone (other than me) takes such action some will continue to respond...to said trolls.

Btw, this has inspired me to write a novel...The Gatling Saga: A Troll is Born...

"Indeed..." he uttered as he rubbed his clawed hands together in glee..."indeed..."

gatlingun6 wrote: Please can you give an unequivocal answer to the following question: As an American citizen what rights did you have on 1 Apr 2008 that you no longer had on 1 Apr 2010.

Gat6

Uh, the right not to buy health insurance?

Is that the correct answer? Did I win a prize...

Uh, ok, another one...the right to uh call someone a dirty name without committing a federal crime?

Is that the correct answer? Did I win a prize for that one...

Ok. One more...the uh right to uh redress grievances to the government without being called a Nazi or Racist or extremist?

Is that the correct answer? No prize yet huh? Ok...lemme think about this....hmmmm...

The fact that I'm a veteran and not an extremist or terrorist?

Is that the correct answer?

You getting the picture yet Jimbo...

Edit #1: Since you, of course, know that I match you wit for wit you wont respond....yet you might wait with "baited breath..."

Edit #2: or is it with "bated breathe..." sorry...

Edit #3: Jimbo, "your silence is deafening"...cant you answer a simple question? Did I win a prize for providing the right answer?

gatlingun6 wrote:

GS78 wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:[ What on earth is the real source of your over arching anger at government?? Were you this angry at every President from Reagan to Obama? Do you believe in or reject Article VI to the Constitution? Please can you give an unequivocal answer to the following question: As an American citizen what rights did you have on 1 Apr 2008 that you no longer had on 1 Apr 2010.

Gat6

against govt jimmie? no I am not against govt, that would make me equivilent to those snot faced liberal punk anarchists we always see crying about climate change, and brown leaves on trees........ funny you would write something like this the same day that the leftwing media,also known as the dinosaur media and the alphabet media, are beginning to change their mantra from " that christian militia..........to that anti-government milita"..... very telling, looks like you got the memo huh jamie. The problem I have is that this administration is the most corrupt since 1972. This administration and congress are actually working against the American people. My copy of the Constitution says thats when its time to change the form of government we have, not simply because our president is more comfortable with communism than he is with free market capitalism, I mean c'mon jay-jay, he took a sabaticle to write his book in Indonesia, why? as his wife said " We needed to find a place where barrack felt comfortable".....

Your silence is deafening. I have respectfully asked you a series of questions. They were not trick questions, or designed to trip you up. They are a sincere attempt to find out what sources are driving your opinions on the Hutaree Militia, The Muslims around Red Post, and your views on specific parts of the Constitution. In answer to sincere questions what do I get in return? An outpouring of commentary that has nothing to do with any of my questions and with ever increasing anger and stridency in tone.

In the most recent post you wrote this: "this administration is the most corrupt since 1972". That is a stark statement with little wiggle room. In 1972 the President was Richard Nixon. Will you explain with specifics why that's a true statement, a statement of fact. What is your standard for corruption? Is it simply your opinion? Is it based on criminal prosecutions? Is it based on ethics violations? Is it based on law illegality, what's the basis for your allegations. Could you please provide the links, so we can examine the same evidence you read? Who knows we might reach the conclusions.

You are measuring President Obama's administration against what historians have said is one of the most if not the most criminal in history. The Nixon's administration engaged in burglaries,The President Orchestrated a cover up of criminal activity, he authorized a secret war in Cambodia, He illegally wiretapped reporters and government employees, he authorized a massive campaign to sabotage his political opposition, he used the IRS to go after an enemies list he had created, he fired government employees to cover up his crimes, he lied to the American people and the Congress about the war and his involvement in the Watergate cover-up. Finally he resigned rather than be impeached. If he had not resigned Republicans and Democrats were poised to do just that. So we await your evidence that the current President exceeds all this.

While you are at it. How can you say the President and the Congress are going against the American people? What is your evidence of that, and please don't cite a poll. Our government does not run on polls. The President of the United States is elected to do what is best for the country. We do not elect Presidents to simply obey some poll. Did President Bush follow the will of the American people when he didn't follow get out of Iraq?

Your comment about communism is not worthy of any question. Why ask a question when the accusation shows that you lack even the most basic understanding of communism.

Finally, it's irrelevant where he went to write his book. I don't know where he went and like most Americans who made it a best seller they don't care either.

Gat6

Jim, if nothing else, you are amusing.

The Nixon's administration engaged in burglaries,The President Orchestrated a cover up of criminal activity, he authorized a secret war in Cambodia, He illegally wiretapped reporters and government employees, he authorized a massive campaign to sabotage his political opposition, he used the IRS to go after an enemies list he had created, he fired government employees to cover up his crimes, he lied to the American people and the Congress about the war and his involvement in the Watergate cover-up. Finally he resigned rather than be impeached. If he had not resigned Republicans and Democrats were poised to do just that. So we await your evidence that the current President exceeds all this.


As if jim didn't know, most of that was in Obama's healthcare debacle...

At least Nixon, once caught in his crimes, resigned. Your affirmative action communist sympathizer, who was elected by morons who thought if they vote for him they would no longer have to put gas in their cars or pay their mortgages not only will NOT resign for his crimes against the american people, he will push for more radical extremism, and continue to alienate the american public, and even challenge them, the majority of which are firmly against him now. No jim, you , like usual don't have a clue what you are talking about.


I will ask though ,when you say "we are waiting " who exactly is 'WE'? I was questioned one time for 23 days. YOU are no match for me james.

gatlingun6 wrote:Your comment about communism is not worthy of any question. Why ask a question when the accusation shows that you lack even the most basic understanding of communism.
Gat6