Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

we are screwed
Bill

SgtBill wrote:we are screwed
Bill

Where's my kiss? Dont I get a kiss then? Cigarette?

gunderwood wrote:I hear you on the bonuses, but I wish they were a significant part of our problem. Honestly, while $15B here and there adds up, it is three orders of magnitude smaller than our problem.

My point was more long the lines of no one will step up to defend/save his "once great country" because the average middling person is simply so disenfranchised its an abstract concept at this point as to who even runs the show.

If we are simply expected to pay our taxes on time and shut up to support a small ruling class, does it matter if they're American or the leadership instilled by an invading nation?

Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

-John Adams

Kreutz wrote:If we are simply expected to pay our taxes on time and shut up to support a small ruling class, does it matter if they're American or the leadership instilled by an invading nation?

Yes, but only in one key way. Most people have no problem with taking extreme measures to oust a foreign invader. They are not us.

Eutaw wrote:Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

-John Adams

Which is why were were a federated republic.

gunderwood wrote:

Eutaw wrote:Remember democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.

-John Adams

Which is why were were a federated republic.

Were? Last time I checked we still are...but headed for socialism if the twits across the river arent stopped...

gunderwood wrote:Yes, but only in one key way. Most people have no problem with taking extreme measures to oust a foreign invader. They are not us.

Can't say the average wall street exec is "us" either, you know many people getting millions of dollars in bonuses for screwing up?

Wouldn't lift a finger to save a system like that personally.

Kreutz wrote:

gunderwood wrote:Yes, but only in one key way. Most people have no problem with taking extreme measures to oust a foreign invader. They are not us.

Can't say the average wall street exec is "us" either, you know many people getting millions of dollars in bonuses for screwing up?

Wouldn't lift a finger to save a system like that personally.

That is the system which they have created. That isn't liberty, freedom, Capitalism, etc. That is corruption mascaraing as such things.

CowboyT wrote:How do we recover and return back to a whole country again?

The answer is simple, but it requires some mental self-discipline, which is too much for some folks. It is this:

We stop voting "party ticket" and start voting in actual Constitutionalists.

Oh, and parents actually raising their children might help out, too....

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Usually I agree with you wholly or in part but not this time depending on what you mean. When you say vote in Constitutionalists that means what? People who will observe what Constitution? Is it today's with all its Amendments, and SCOTUS decisions? Is it the Constitution party's proposal?

How would a Constitutionalist solve today's pressing issues?
The decline of the Middle Class
The decline of educational achievements by American students
A long term budget deficit
Spiraling health care costs
War in Afghanistan
Global warming
Dependence on fossil fuels
Immigrations policy

To name a few

Gat6

@Gat6 - there is indeed a Constitutionalist party. Passing legislation that adheres to the Constitution and repealing that which does not would be a great start. Doing anything else spits on the graves of patriots throughout our history and flies in the face of everything our nation's foundation stands for...

gatlingun6 wrote:Usually I agree with you wholly or in part but not this time depending on what you mean. When you say vote in Constitutionalists that means what? People who will observe what Constitution? Is it today's with all its Amendments, and SCOTUS decisions? Is it the Constitution party's proposal?

Ugh! Please don't make me sick. That was a bunch of way left wing nonsense that was trotted out when the Tea Party was getting started. Implying of course that the Tea Party, "Constitutionalist" or whatever wanted to go back to day one...you know, like no womens rights, enslaving blacks, etc. You and I both know that that is nothing but a load of crock. No one said those things except the left wing elite who were trying to discredit their political opponents.

If they really wanted to go back to day one they would be railing against the Bill of Rights as that wasn't there on day one!

gatlingun6 wrote:How would a Constitutionalist solve today's pressing issues?
The decline of the Middle Class
The decline of educational achievements by American students
A long term budget deficit
Spiraling health care costs
War in Afghanistan
Global warming
Dependence on fossil fuels
Immigrations policy

To name a few

Gat6

Isn't it funny that the more government runs our lives the worse those problems get? The very policies you have advocated in the past are directly responsible for those problems, so DK is right, getting the government out of them is the first step towards solving them.

1. The decline of the Middle Class -- The middle class has been and will continue to decline because the governments monetary policy is to steal their portion of the productivity increases through inflation. Before the New Deal the workers, owners, and investors all received some of the productivity increase, but not anymore. Real inflation, not some silly core CPI calc, is significantly higher than the average raise for the American worker. If it were any other way, their standard of living could not decline by definition. The only thing hiding the enormous inflation has been the dramatic productivity increases.

2. The decline of educational achievements by American students -- Yes, the government educational system and the Prussian educational philosophies the left has pushed and rammed down our throats the last century have created one of the worst educational systems in the world. We get very little ROI.

3. A long term budget deficit -- Seriously? If the government wasn't spending Trillions on things it has no Constitutional authority to do the budget deficit would be non-existent!

4. Spiraling health care costs -- The should do what the interstate commerce clause and general welfare clauses were intended to do...break down interstate barriers to trade and efficiencies. If the feds should do anything at all, they should be allowing competition across state lines and breaking down regulations which have causes the massive spikes in overhead and compliance costs. Health care was a heavily regulated market long before Obamacare was passed into law. Every successive attempt to reform it is a reaction to the previous reforms flaws or have you forgotten Clinton's reform already (and the many before that)?

War in Afghanistan -- A Constitutionalist wouldn't have started those wars without an explicit declaration of war. However, we are already there so now we have to deal with the consequences. It's kind of like all the welfare spending. It should never have been started, but now that we are hear today (I don't have a time machine do you?) we must deal with the issues caused exactly because we didn't follow the Constitution.

Global warming -- Still a believer, eh?

Dependence on fossil fuels -- Quit blocking our reserves here and get rid of the enormous regulation which makes it practically impossible to build a new refinery. Also, states should do away with the specialty blends and additives that some of the crazy localities require. I don't see how the feds have that power though since those additives are added locally and the refined gas product is basically the same as it is shipped to all the states (not quite, but close enough). If we quit subsidizing things and quit blocking access the people would know what the real price of oil/gas is. The problem is when they make decisions off of a purposefully depressed price and then reality gets the better of the governments plans so prices spike. You can't make good decisions unless you what the real costs and trade offs are.

Immigrations policy -- First, they can quit trying to make illegals voters for the Democrats. Second, they need to revise our temporary work permitting processes as clearly there is a need for more immigrant workers than the current process allows. However, a lot of those jobs would natural just move to Mexico or other countries if they quit subsidizing big agriculture. We end up paying the real price of goods and services anyways, it just is if we are going to pay it directly or through taxes. Citizenship is a very different problem then just work policy. Reinterpreting the 14th for anchor babies is another issue they can fix.

Unfortunately most people are good students of history and/or haven't lived long enough to realize that the law of unintended consequences and the natural order of things is why these government interventions not only fail in their objectives, but also cause havoc on in many tangential areas. We can't make good decisions until we quit distorting the markets.

Ya know, we sometimes see right wingers throwing around that progressives and liberals are mentally ill...I'm actually no kidding starting to believe it...definitely some dysfunctional stuff going on in the minds of most of these people...if we honestly dont stop this crap our country will end up like the movie Idiocracy...

zephyp wrote:Ya know, we sometimes see right wingers throwing around that progressives and liberals are mentally ill...I'm actually no kidding starting to believe it...definitely some dysfunctional stuff going on in the minds of most of these people...if we honestly dont stop this crap our country will end up like the movie Idiocracy...

Yes they are, however to be fair the repiblicans and the conservitives have'nt done any better than the liberals and the democrats. They just say that they are for the Constitution when in fact they are the "ruling class", along with the democrats, who would like nothing better than to see us "little people" working their slave factories and plantations for nothing.

Summary, the republicans are no better than the democrats.

@jim100 - yup, I think you be right...

zephyp wrote:@jim100 - yup, I think you be right...

The newly elected reps need to revolt as it is becoming more clear every day that the Rep. leadership is really just more of the same. Thankfully many of the leadership will be up for reelection next cycle; shame we have to wait that long though.

Taggure wrote:I agree that history repeats itself, and that is one of the reasons that I started this thread was to get folks to think about that.
Look at the power struggle that is going on in just this election. What is its root cause?

IMHO it has only really been a Smack in the face that woke me up over the Last 6 years after what Bush was doing with the spending the price of Gas when it went to $4 a gallon and Congress left on vacation in August without addressing issues, and then follow up with Obama for the past 2 years.
The spending is NOT the cause of the power struggle that is just what made folk start paying attention to all of this. It is the way the government is acting in general that is really making folks take notice and get upset now that they have been focusing on the problems. These types of actions have been going on with the government for the past 80 or so years but folks are only just now really paying attention to it.
I heard a statement the other day that went something like this “The Government will allow you to do this” whatever happened to the States/People allowing the Government to do something instead?
The TEA party I think is just the start of things to come as I think that both sides (R & D) will have to take notice of their issues on spending and bloated government expenses, but we have other issues that need addressed as well like Boarder Security and all the issues that go along with that, and Private sector Unemployment.

There are some now mostly on the Left that want the Constitution to look at as a Living Document that could and Should be changed to meet the society of today.

So in a New Government How will the Constitution be viewed? As a legacy to say that was how we used to do things, or as a firm platform to make adjustments from, or be completely thrown away and a European style of Government emerge?

Come on folks think about this. What are some of the arguments that you could make to save and return our government back to what our Founding Fathers meant it to be, or do we look at our government with new eyes and plot a way forward because you know that there will never be a return back to limited federal government.

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Question: If the Constitution was put to a vote today would it be ratified? My bet is NO WAY! A pretty standard refrain is: I believe in Art X, Sec X, or Amendment X: BUT! Lots of "BUTS" always figure in Constitutional discussions.

You stated what some on the left want, and I assume that's bad? Does the Right want nothing amended, or added? The Constitution Party (CP), and some other so-called Constitutional groups want radical change. CP wants God and the Christian Bible specifically written into the Constitution. Their Constitution takes complete charge of a woman's womb. Shall we put a value judgment on what they want?

You ask about returning our government to what our Founding Fathers meant it to be. If the Founders themselves could not agree on what they meant it to be, how can we? We know for example that right away 2 of the Framers, Alexander Hamilton and James Madison vehemently disagreed about the extent of Congressional authority. President Washington sided with Hamilton. SCOTUS sided with Hamilton too.

If I may answer with another question which I didn't write: At the risk of seeming irreverent; "Why should we feel bound today by a document produced more than two centuries ago by a group of fifty-five mortal men, actually signed by only thirty-nine, a fair number of whom were slaveholders, and adopted in only thirteen states by the votes of fewer than two thousand men, all of whom are long since dead and mostly forgotten." The questioner continued "Wise as the Framers were, they were necessarily limited by their profound ignorance." That's not disrespectful, it's simply a statement of fact.

Since the Framers made numerous wrong assumptions, missed others, and were working under duress, why should I want to return their flawed document?

I used 2 terms: Founding Fathers, and Framers. I see the Founders as people like John Adams, Samuel Adams, Tom Paine, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, etc. Lacking a precise definition these and others were all notables in the establishment of the U.S. The 1st four however were not Framers since they were not delegates to the Constitutional Convention. My problem with returning to what the Founders intended is that some were Federalists and others were anti-Federalists, so it's what which Founder intended?

OK before I earn the wrath of the Z man, let me stop.

Gat6

We need a "Don't feed the troll" smilie.

CowboyT wrote:How do we recover and return back to a whole country again?

The answer is simple, but it requires some mental self-discipline, which is too much for some folks. It is this:

We stop voting "party ticket" and start voting in actual Constitutionalists.

Oh, and parents actually raising their children might help out, too....

There - that's better!
This is the root of the problem. The 'People' as a whole abdicated that role to the government.
Until the family unit gets it's act together, the situation will not improve. And since you can't legislate morality, the fix won't be coming from the governmental top down.

Palladin wrote:

CowboyT wrote:How do we recover and return back to a whole country again?

The answer is simple, but it requires some mental self-discipline, which is too much for some folks. It is this:

We stop voting "party ticket" and start voting in actual Constitutionalists.

Oh, and parents actually raising their children might help out, too....

There - that's better!
This is the root of the problem. The 'People' as a whole abdicated that role to the government.
Until the family unit gets it's act together, the situation will not improve. And since you can't legislate morality, the fix won't be coming from the governmental top down.

+1