SHTF - caliber and platform discussion

[caps85]

One of the reasons I posted this initially was to see what people are counting on when the SHTF - errr, if the SHTF. It's interesting to see the wide range of what people count as key components. I'm debating between picking up a higher caliber rifle (.308, perhaps) to complement my .223/5.56, or a .22LR for ammo ubiquity, or just a lot of 5.56 ammo. I think the answer, clearly, is all of the above. I'm pretty comfortable with my handgun calibers.

Call me crazy, but I believe we will see another Katrina-type event and a separate instance of mass civil insurrection to dwarf the LA riots within our lifetime. Zombies? Probably not, but I think it's good to be prepared.

Something you should consider is how much you can comfortably hump around for extended periods, as well as what actions you anticipate having to take. 3 rifles is quite a significant commitment, as well as 3 calibers, not including your sidearm. 308 is a great caliber but you have to consider weight, as well as what roles it's going to be used for that do not overlap with the 556. For me, 308 is for taking accurate shots to 800 out of an average platform; do you intend to engage targets that far away? You *may* be better served by spending the money on a suppressor. In a scenario where you're completely enveloped in a hostile environment leaving as small a signature as possible is tremendously important. If you're worried about making longer shots get your hands on some black hills 77g and an 18 or 20 inch barrel and you should be good to go for a fairly significant distance.

[gunderwood]

One of the reasons I posted this initially was to see what people are counting on when the SHTF - errr, if the SHTF. It's interesting to see the wide range of what people count as key components. I'm debating between picking up a higher caliber rifle (.308, perhaps) to complement my .223/5.56, or a .22LR for ammo ubiquity, or just a lot of 5.56 ammo. I think the answer, clearly, is all of the above. I'm pretty comfortable with my handgun calibers.

Call me crazy, but I believe we will see another Katrina-type event and a separate instance of mass civil insurrection to dwarf the LA riots within our lifetime. Zombies? Probably not, but I think it's good to be prepared.

Something you should consider is how much you can comfortably hump around for extended periods, as well as what actions you anticipate having to take. 3 rifles is quite a significant commitment, as well as 3 calibers, not including your sidearm. 308 is a great caliber but you have to consider weight, as well as what roles it's going to be used for that do not overlap with the 556. For me, 308 is for taking accurate shots to 800 out of an average platform; do you intend to engage targets that far away? You *may* be better served by spending the money on a suppressor. In a scenario where you're completely enveloped in a hostile environment leaving as small a signature as possible is tremendously important. If you're worried about making longer shots get your hands on some black hills 77g and an 18 or 20 inch barrel and you should be good to go for a fairly significant distance.

I don't plan on engaging someone at those ranges (800 yards). However, I can't dictate what others may try to engage me at. Having a long range platform available and knowing how to use it is golden. I still maintain the best is combined arms theory and working with people who live by you and you trust.

I like the 16"/mid-length gas system ARs with a good steel suppressor. They make Ti and I like those for my bolt guns, but not for a high volume of fire gun like an AR. YMMV.

[OleMan]

Just a thought. There is some SHTF situation, minor or really bad. What do we do about our 'sheeple-we-don't-like/own-guns' neighbors who come running to us 'rednecks clinging to their guns' for protection when they have zero firepower and 911 gives 'em a busy signal? Tell 'em " it's too late for you 'sheep dip' " or maybe "I'm not the police, go call Handgun Control, they'll help with your problem"?

Just a thought to ponder.

[zephyp]

Just a thought. There is some SHTF situation, minor or really bad. What do we do about our 'sheeple-we-don't-like/own-guns' neighbors who come running to us 'rednecks clinging to their guns' for protection when they have zero firepower and 911 gives 'em a busy signal? Tell 'em " it's too late for you 'sheep dip' " or maybe "I'm not the police, go call Handgun Control, they'll help with your problem"?

Just a thought to ponder.

I've also given this some thought and have looked around the neighborhood. A single home in a neighborhood is not as easy to protect as a neighborhood. A "built up" area provides more opportunity for defense. I plan to seek out a couple of neighbors and enlist their aid plus provide guns and ammo as required. And, my plan doesnt include hanging around unless departure becomes harder than staying. So, having someone at my back as I slip away might help.

Also, consider that helping your neighbors makes them more likely to side with you than against you. If I were a thug looking to take over an area I would use that to sway folks over to my side...

"Look at that dude over there. Has he helped you? He has food, water, weapons and what do you have?"

Guns and ammo are combat multipliers (obviously) but so are numbers. Depending on your situation winning hearts and minds might be as important as keeping your guns loaded and handy...

[caps85]

One of the reasons I posted this initially was to see what people are counting on when the SHTF - errr, if the SHTF. It's interesting to see the wide range of what people count as key components. I'm debating between picking up a higher caliber rifle (.308, perhaps) to complement my .223/5.56, or a .22LR for ammo ubiquity, or just a lot of 5.56 ammo. I think the answer, clearly, is all of the above. I'm pretty comfortable with my handgun calibers.

Call me crazy, but I believe we will see another Katrina-type event and a separate instance of mass civil insurrection to dwarf the LA riots within our lifetime. Zombies? Probably not, but I think it's good to be prepared.

Something you should consider is how much you can comfortably hump around for extended periods, as well as what actions you anticipate having to take. 3 rifles is quite a significant commitment, as well as 3 calibers, not including your sidearm. 308 is a great caliber but you have to consider weight, as well as what roles it's going to be used for that do not overlap with the 556. For me, 308 is for taking accurate shots to 800 out of an average platform; do you intend to engage targets that far away? You *may* be better served by spending the money on a suppressor. In a scenario where you're completely enveloped in a hostile environment leaving as small a signature as possible is tremendously important. If you're worried about making longer shots get your hands on some black hills 77g and an 18 or 20 inch barrel and you should be good to go for a fairly significant distance.

I don't plan on engaging someone at those ranges (800 yards). However, I can't dictate what others may try to engage me at. Having a long range platform available and knowing how to use it is golden. I still maintain the best is combined arms theory and working with people who live by you and you trust.

I like the 16"/mid-length gas system ARs with a good steel suppressor. They make Ti and I like those for my bolt guns, but not for a high volume of fire gun like an AR. YMMV.

Very true but you have to ask yourself what the average shooter can do with a .308 semi auto that they can't do with a 5.56 semi auto with proper ammo and velocity. Another item to consider is that if you're being engaged at 800 yards then there are probably several things fundamentally wrong with the situation. If you're the type who can regularly make 1K shots then by all means hump both, all I meant to imply was that if you don't have the means to effectively utilize the top end of the platform that *in general* an *individual* would be better served with a tool more specialized to a role they can effectively employ it in, saving weight and increasing the amount of ammo they can carry with them.

[gunderwood]

Just a thought. There is some SHTF situation, minor or really bad. What do we do about our 'sheeple-we-don't-like/own-guns' neighbors who come running to us 'rednecks clinging to their guns' for protection when they have zero firepower and 911 gives 'em a busy signal? Tell 'em " it's too late for you 'sheep dip' " or maybe "I'm not the police, go call Handgun Control, they'll help with your problem"?

Just a thought to ponder.

I've also given this some thought and have looked around the neighborhood. A single home in a neighborhood is not as easy to protect as a neighborhood. A "built up" area provides more opportunity for defense. I plan to seek out a couple of neighbors and enlist their aid plus provide guns and ammo as required. And, my plan doesnt include hanging around unless departure becomes harder than staying. So, having someone at my back as I slip away might help.

Also, consider that helping your neighbors makes them more likely to side with you than against you. If I were a thug looking to take over an area I would use that to sway folks over to my side...

"Look at that dude over there. Has he helped you? He has food, water, weapons and what do you have?"

Guns and ammo are combat multipliers (obviously) but so are numbers. Depending on your situation winning hearts and minds might be as important as keeping your guns loaded and handy...

+1

[gunderwood]

Very true but you have to ask yourself what the average shooter can do with a .308 semi auto that they can't do with a 5.56 semi auto with proper ammo and velocity. Another item to consider is that if you're being engaged at 800 yards then there are probably several things fundamentally wrong with the situation. If you're the type who can regularly make 1K shots then by all means hump both, all I meant to imply was that if you don't have the means to effectively utilize the top end of the platform that *in general* an *individual* would be better served with a tool more specialized to a role they can effectively employ it in, saving weight and increasing the amount of ammo they can carry with them.

I was intending the "range they engage me at" to be slightly funny. Honesty, if someone isn't trained they aren't going to pick up a bolt action rifle and do me any harm at that distance. I would be a little more worried about any rifle which had a BCD reticle, that would increase their odds considerably. Still would be luck if they got me first at that range.

On a more serious note, big rifles are a huge advantage for stopping vehicles and supporting defensive positions if the person using it is well trained. I live toward the top of a hill so from my highest floor I can see the Dulles airport with is about 5 miles away. A trained shooter/spotter on top of a water tower or tall building around here would provide substantial tactical advantage for any group defending the neighborhood...not to mention if the rifle has the ability to stop vehicles like a 50BMG. Certainly most people need a simple AR/AK/SKS/Scout Rifle setup for SHTF. However, IMHO your best chances of surviving is working with a team and in that case a large rifle is a bonus. Being well trained just means that you are one of the guys who gets to sit well inside the secure zone and play fire support and scout for the perimeter guards.

[holepunch]

I intend to "bug-in" as it were, and I'm content with what I've got, but if it came down to it and I needed to head for location #2, there would be minimum in teh truck, custom AR in 5.56, GLOCK 19, Savage Mk II .22lr, and possibly the FAL, with extra ammo for the AR and .22

'nuff said.

[bryanrheem]

Very interesting read and something I do think about. I haven't really heard any discussion regarding taking care of loved ones. I have a family with younger kids, and while it would be easy for me to run around and do what is necessary, I have to be constantly thinking about the family factor.

I would be really interested in hearing other thoughts regarding that. For me personally, because of the age of my kids, it would be better to hole them up inside the house, but that has cons as well. It really complicates the situation and I can see myself taking non-strategic action to protect them if they are in immediate danger.

Transportation also becomes an issue. While my 4x4 truck is much more suited to flight in a SHTF scenario....it is no where as comfortable as the mini-van.

[gunderwood]

Very interesting read and something I do think about. I haven't really heard any discussion regarding taking care of loved ones. I have a family with younger kids, and while it would be easy for me to run around and do what is necessary, I have to be constantly thinking about the family factor.

I would be really interested in hearing other thoughts regarding that. For me personally, because of the age of my kids, it would be better to hole them up inside the house, but that has cons as well. It really complicates the situation and I can see myself taking non-strategic action to protect them if they are in immediate danger.

May I suggest it doesn't change as much as you might think?

Even before a SHTF situation, you aren't always around to protect them. While I think it is primarily your responsibility to do so, to a limited extend the other members of your family must be willing and capable to protect themselves. IMHO, you have a responsibility to make sure they can do that. For example, I carry nearly everywhere, but my wife does not...particularly when she is with me. I have provided her with the tools, I have worked with her on training, but I can't force her to do it. Don't forget that firearms are just one of the many tools which can be used.

In the event of a SHTF situation, your goal is for you and your family to survive. There is no one size fits all. Sometimes staying put is the right answer, other times bugging out is, etc. etc. IMHO, people get too wrapped around the axle about going it alone. True, that may be what you need, but particularly if you stay put, you will need others. Combined arms with strategic planning, even if it is on a small scale, beats the loner every time. What makes a great action movie is violating that reality! IMHO, that warps our ability to accurately judge the situation. The temptation is to hole up and not expose your self to any risks, but that is exactly what will guarantee your death. It might delay it, but in the end the evil will find you and engage you on their terms.

When the water stops, how will you get more? Will you march the whole family out to carry water? Will you leave them alone while you go get some? Such situations may be unavoidable, but team work always works better. Yes, you may have to leave your family guarded by others at the "camp" while you guard the water convoy or go on recon patrol or hunt or whatever. In every case, if you can work with a local group performing strategic defensive operations your odds of living are much better.

IMHO, if you focus only on providing immediate defense of your family you will find that you have not even provided that. Great tactical maneuvers mean nothing unless they are coordinated for strategic purposes. At times things seem contrary to the main goal. For example, going on a recon patrol exposes the recon patrol to great risks. However, not knowing what threats are out there is going to get everyone killed.

[MP15Lover]

After reading the posts, I thought I would reflect on what I have seen in my time, so here goes....
It was the late 60's and a riot developed in our town.
It was senseless to me, but not so with the rioters.
The army soldiers had empty guns and stood by while the looters ramsacked everything they came to.
If this happens today for what ever reason, I would prefer to be prepared to defend my family in my home.
Of course you cannot just keep quiet and hope you will get passed by, as that will most certainly not happen.
Having given this some thought, I have put away thousands of rounds ammo in sealed army ammo cans.
22's, 223's, 38's, 38 super, 45 long colt, 9mm, 410 and 12 gauge ammo and the magazines to go with them, so much I cannot lift some of the cans.
Of course I would not do this without having the necessary equipment to use this ammo.
Now riots go on 24 hours a day and one man cannot keep his eyes open forever. Just watch the news.
Those seeking food and personal items are not going to allow you too rest.
So, without someone to join with you, you are up the creek without a paddle.
I have been offered membership in a milita, and I am leary of openly associating myself with one.
I have watched one Homeland security jerk at the local range and believe you me he could kill you while eating a meal and not miss a bite of his food as he was brainwashed and rather on the stupid side. Geesh! He was one that you would love to make an example of on how to rid the world of jerks but he knew very well how to use and AR 15.
Taking on the Homeland security or the army would be fruitless as they are well armed and will wipe us out.
There are a lot of "IFs" when considering what you can or what you should do if the SHTF.
It is going to be a hard time for all.
Better think deeply about how you react.

[bryanrheem]

gunderwood, I appreciate the response!

Looks like I need to do a little bit more prodding to get to know my neighbors a little bit better. I do have friends in other parts of NoVA but who knows if time would allow any sort of commute?

[dschflier]

bryanrheem,
Where in NOVA are you located. I find myself in a similar situation. I have 2 young kids. To top it off my wife doesn't really see the need to prep.

Becuase of this I have done most on my own. I finally got her to agree to come with me to the range though.

Over the last year I feel I have become much more prepared for tough situations. The one place I would like to work on is to start working with my neighbors. One way I plan on doing this is through seeds. I know this sounds strange but I think it has potential. I have bought a a lot of open polleenated seed. I also have bought fruit and nut trees from the arbor day foundation. I plan on talking with them about using some of my seeds or trees on there yards. I believe if we all work together in something that most people see as important. ie food. It will give me the oportunity to talk about security as we build trust in each other.

If you live close I would be happy to talk about what I have done to prepare and maybe to swap some ideas.

David

[Reverenddel]

Keep in mind, "stand and fight" only works in organized wars with static lines.

In times of disaster, the man who has your back, could put a knife in it pretty quickly. I'm not saying "Don't trust anyone", but I'm saying "Put your trust CAUTIOUSLY"

As to the guv'mint? Yeah, i saw the examples of their organization in Katrina. I think the two words: "CLUSTER..." and you know the other, fits PERFECTLY!

[zephyp]

@dschflier - my wife in the same boat...doesnt see the need to prepare for anything except the next day. Trying to change that is not easy. Guys like you and I have to take that on ourselves and be ready to drag them away if/when the time comes...

Stand and fight is a good alternative for those not in built up areas...the problem for us closed in is escaping if need be...must be mentally prepared and know what to do and when...

[bryanrheem]

dschflier,

I sent you a PM. I think you have a great plan on engaging your neighbors! I am in also your situation with the wife. She is not interested... but I am just trying to get her to the range and we'll go from there.

I think preparation is the key for all situations (stay or go). Great input!

[itsme]

I have a Baretta 92 FS shouldered 3 clips and an extended 20 round clip, a 22 lr semi, a 22 magum pump action with 16 dollar walmart scope (stealth hunting) a mossberg 500 loaded with 3 inch magnum double 00, a spikes tactical AR 15 30 round clips and a 100 round beta mag and a DPMS LR-308 heavy barrel with a 70 dollar center point scope and walmart winchester bipod, 5,000 rounds of 9mm hp, 10,000 rounds of 223 cheap russian ammo, 1,000 rounds of good 223 hp, 4,000 rounds of various types of high quality american made SAMMI 308. And a foodstore from costco builtup over time including cases and cases of that ramen crap to toss at zombies make them go away (very cheap and looks pleasing to the starving) 1 ton of rice 1/2 ton of flour, froze it all for a week, then rebagged it all in 1 gallon zip locks, stored in 3 mil contractor bags in a underground always cool dark place, and about 5 grand in bulk costco foods and canned and dried milk, 500 lbs of coffee, and a medical kit including various things u cant get (probably) and books on anatamony and field surgery. This was all begun 90 days ago. I think we are ready. Location is between two mountains with only two ways in, heavy earthmoving equipment will be used and abandoned to block off public entry.

[itsme]

wives, tell me about it, watch PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO, then learn to slap yer woman down if she goes bleeding heart on you, spouse could be yer doom unless u get things straight BEFORE action is needed. Mine is armed and at range, but still has head in sand on prep, im doing it all, considering leaving her behind, so i may have a opening

[itsme]

Go here and u can request to see PANIC IN THE YEAR ZERO

http://www.justin.tv/toptossedcaster

[itsme]

What do we do about our 'sheeple-we-don't-like/own-guns' neighbors who come running to us 'rednecks clinging to their guns' for protection when they have zero firepower and 911 gives 'em a busy signal?

UMMM simple

THEY ARE THE ROOT CAUSE of why the SHTF

Why would u acknowledge them ?

They are a already bitten casualty one heartbeat from full zomb, write em off, after you evaluate them for potential, medical experience, assets they have, and liablities they come with (spouses kids etc).

In most cases, c ya.

Tell them to go open a dailouge with the zombs, that they understand where they are coming from, only want to help them etc etc, that will give them something to do and keep them out of yer hair.