Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Ah yes. I do make an effort to desensitize and offer opportunity at least for conversation. Young and I were married last winter and had a public reception in May. I was accompanied by Henry as best man. Bill was also present. By the way, thanks again guys. The 3 of us proudly wore side arms. Henry and I even had camo vests and ties. Most of the crowd were gun shy, which I knew before hand. No one said squat nor offered any opportunity for conversation about it except for the 2 young Korean guys who took pictures for us...I offered to take them both shooting, gave phone number, and e-mail. Followed up with another invite and as of yet have not heard form either...the only other comment came from Young's Korean boss - "looks like the security guards are here..."

So, I gave it a good try that time. Not many opportunities in the office as I am sorry to report that most of the folks I work with are democrats and many of the officers dont like the idea of us civilians running around armed. I even had a retired Lt Col looked at me with a shocked expression when she found I regularly carry a gun - "WHY?!" she blurted out....and this from someone who served 20 years and some of that time downrange...go figure.

I know some of you employ OC as a means to start conversation. Here in NOVA, less than 10 miles from the Capitol building, it aint quite so easy...wearing a pistol openly will more likely get you a conversation with cops while gawkers hope you get arrested before it will with a regular citizen curious about your pistol and whether it "kicks" or not...

Its not easy trying to be a 2A ambassador but opportunities do occasionally present themselves.

Your experiences show just how easy our task isn't. I used to think OC'ers were a little wacko, too. We will run into opposition, and we won't win every time. That Lt. Col situation you described is particularly unfortunate, on several levels. I would even call it shameful that enough of our military officers feel that way.

I'm one of those who does occasionally employ OC, with my "barbecue" gun. It's that stainless S&W 44, but with the original rosewood stocks, in a tooled leather holster, so it looks remarkably "cowboy-ish". I'm generally polite anyway, but when I OC, I put a little extra of the "Boy Scout" persona on (like many others, I was a Boy Scout in my younger years). To date, I've had a few "oh...that's a gun..." looks directed my way, but the response has generally been positive.

One time, my g/f and I were having lunch at a Red Robin. I was OC'ing that day. A Korean-American father and his (I guess 8-year-old or so) son were at the next table over from us. We figured, uh-oh, he's probably going to say something negative. As we got up to leave after lunch, the father smiled and said, "hey, thumbs up on the open carry!" We talked briefly with him, and then we left. Granted, he was already a "friendly", but who knows--someone else on the fence may have heard his positive response to the OC. And I have myself already changed a few minds here and there from "hostile" to at least "somewhat neutral". Hey, it's improvement, so I'll take it.

You're right, the opportunities for ambassadorship don't always come. You are so right on there. So, when they do come, I think we ought to take advantage of them. The way I see it, we have very little to lose, and so much to gain.

CowboyT wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

CowboyT wrote:You all would be surprised at how many liberals out here think this way, like Zephyp describes...We're the folks that our movement needs. I assure you, such people can be brought to a pro-2A position, if we're good ambassadors for it. And that's the key--being good ambassadors for it.

I'm not surprised (just as I wouldn't be if you said that there are many Republicans who like most of the platform, but hate guns...both are true) and they are welcome. Just like everyone else.

Then instead of proferring all sorts of reasons why either it isn't your row to hoe or that it just won't work, do something constructive and help me with this. If people like you don't, we will eventually lose. But if you will, then we just might win.

Here's an example. You said, "I'm not surprised...and they are welcome. Just like everyone else." That position is not going to change things in our favor one bit. You're referring to those who are already pro-2A. The goal here is to get those who aren't necessarily pro-2A to start coming pro-2A. We need to welcome them, too. Now, if you don't want to help with that, then OK, that's your choice. But I hope that Zephyp and others will. If you do decide to come around, then I'd most certainly welcome you in this effort as well.

I reach out to people not involved in firearms all the time. I have taken many new shooters out (some very reluctant, some I'm still working on) and several have later bought firearms. Their politics didn't matter and they were all over the map.

People are reaching out all the time, that isn't the problem. We do have an image problem and we can thank the media, a bunch of liberals and even a few conservatives for that. We have an image that puts people off, but it isn't because the image is true, but rather that our enemies have successfully branded us as such. We do need to work at proving that image wrong and we don't have to change to accomplish that because that stereotype isn't us. We just have to work at getting the word out.

However, what I'm pretty sure we don't need is gun owners, of any political leanings, saying that stereotype has any validity.

That is what I didn't like about your piece. You know that isn't typical of gun owners, so why push the idea it is even partially true? You have people like that in any group, but that isn't indicative of the group as a whole. We don't teach that, nor do we support it. Firearms should be a neutral subject (in the national discussion threads we can debate anything Rick will let us... ).

Has it truly been your experience that most gun owners are like that? I hope not. Instead of pushing the negative stereotype, why don't you focus on most gun owners and your positive experiences with them as a counter to said stereotype? That seems more constructive to me.

I wonder what stereotype you might derive by wandering around a gun show, looking at the people and the things being sold?

gunderwood wrote: I reach out to people not involved in firearms all the time. I have taken many new shooters out (some very reluctant, some I'm still working on) and several have later bought firearms. Their politics didn't matter and they were all over the map.

People are reaching out all the time, that isn't the problem. We do have an image problem and we can thank the media, a bunch of liberals and even a few conservatives for that. We have an image that puts people off, but it isn't because the image is true, but rather that our enemies have successfully branded us as such. We do need to work at proving that image wrong and we don't have to change to accomplish that because that stereotype isn't us. We just have to work at getting the word out.

However, what I'm pretty sure we don't need is gun owners, of any political leanings, saying that stereotype has any validity.

That is what I didn't like about your piece. You know that isn't typical of gun owners, so why push the idea it is even partially true? You have people like that in any group, but that isn't indicative of the group as a whole. We don't teach that, nor do we support it. Firearms should be a neutral subject (in the national discussion threads we can debate anything Rick will let us... ).

Has it truly been your experience that most gun owners are like that? I hope not. Instead of pushing the negative stereotype, why don't you focus on most gun owners and your positive experiences with them as a counter to said stereotype? That seems more constructive to me.

Depends on where I've been in the country. If you're talking about San Francisco or Seattle, then no. But throughout my travels in the South, including my experience here in VA, the answer has unfortunately been yes. The things I described seeing in the piece are things I've actually seen and heard. And you should hear some of the stories my Dad and others have told me throughout the years across the nation. Just...wow.... So yes, it does have some validity.

Despite all that, I love going to gun shows! I love target practice! I get a real kick out of being behind the VCDL booth! And that's why I'm behind that booth as often as possible. Folks will come in to a show who are scared of guns. A friend talked 'em into coming. Well, they see me with my barbecue gun (unloaded at the show, of course, per the rules), and that I'm a liberal (they REALLY don't expect to see that!), and they then feel comfortable talking with me. I've been told quite a few times, "you're OK, you're not one of the nutjobs/gun nuts/wingnuts/InsertOtherStereotypeWordHere." I wish you could be with me sometimes at the shows and see what I see, hear what I hear. I become an ambassador and explain what gun ownership really means, and that it's really non-partisan. I explain about VCDL folks like Sam Childress and Philip Van Cleave. I tell 'em about my parents. These things do help.

Here's an example. At the last Chantilly show, a Latin American family came to the VCDL booth. The father had just gotten into firearms pretty enthusiastically. See, he wanted to protect his family. His 16-year-old daughter was somewhat understanding of the idea, but his wife thought he went off the deep end. I talked with his wife and daughter for a bit, as her husband was actually off buying a Springfield XD (he came back in about 10 minutes). She indicated to me that she felt I wasn't a wingnut. She told me about how she thought the gun owners were all rednecks that just figured she and her family were "illegals". She related a few less-than-positive experiences about that. I assured her that not all of us are like that! The other folks at the booth saw the direction I was going and went with it. When we were done, she was visibly less uptight and far more relaxed. That's a win for us. Another guy who works the shows does the same kind of thing, and he's really good at it. I'm still learning from him.

I agree with you that we need to counter that stereotype, and that firearms should be a neutral subject. And that was the point of the piece. That's where our ambassadorship comes in. As a gun owner, yes, I will point out where we could be doing that better. And in a whole lot of cases, we could be and should be.

When you run into white guys with t-shirts depicting our president being hung or shot, all carrying firearms, and liberally dropping "negro" and "coon" and "gook" it sets us all back quite a bit. That's why we have to work harder to counter that image. The anti-gunners will focus on it and paint us all with the same brush.

I am proud that in the 4-5 months I have been shooting, I've gotten a handful of people interested in shooting. I get the, "You own firearms?!" look, then the questions, then the, "Ohhhh.... will you take me to the range?"

Mindflayer wrote:When you run into white guys with t-shirts depicting our president being hung or shot, all carrying firearms, and liberally dropping "negro" and "coon" and "gook" it sets us all back quite a bit.

I've been in massive protest crowds and not seen one. Unless maybe you were referring to the previous president.

TheGodfather wrote:

Mindflayer wrote:When you run into white guys with t-shirts depicting our president being hung or shot, all carrying firearms, and liberally dropping "negro" and "coon" and "gook" it sets us all back quite a bit.

I've been in massive protest crowds and not seen one. Unless maybe you were referring to the previous president.

Who said anything about protests? Carrying a weapon to a protest is illegal in some jurisdictions. I was referring to just being out and about - the worst incident I have faced was in a Wendy's, where I was told I was going to be shot for being a "gook". The knee jerk reaction and immediate counter with "Look, the political left|right do it, too!" is a straw man. Your flippant dismissal of my experiences is not only missing the point, it is rude.

The point is that the stereotype does exist, I have faced it, and I choose to counter it by being a good - and unexpected - ambassador.

Mindflayer wrote:

TheGodfather wrote:

Mindflayer wrote:When you run into white guys with t-shirts depicting our president being hung or shot, all carrying firearms, and liberally dropping "negro" and "coon" and "gook" it sets us all back quite a bit.

I've been in massive protest crowds and not seen one. Unless maybe you were referring to the previous president.

Who said anything about protests? Carrying a weapon to a protest is illegal in some jurisdictions. I was referring to just being out and about - the worst incident I have faced was in a Wendy's, where I was told I was going to be shot for being a "gook". The knee jerk reaction and immediate counter with "Look, the political left|right do it, too!" is a straw man. Your flippant dismissal of my experiences is not only missing the point, it is rude.

The point is that the stereotype does exist, I have faced it, and I choose to counter it by being a good - and unexpected - ambassador.

And you have completely missed my first point. I have been to the supposed "breeding grounds" of the "white nazi racist gun slinging biggots" over and over again and not seen one. Now if they are so few that I can't even find them, I'd say that's a small enough number that they shouldn't have any effect on stereotypes. So if the stereotype does exist, then it must exist because someone with an agenda (liberal media) WANTS it to exist and continually streams the message.

You want to counter the image? Stop supporting networks, politicians, etc...that continually feed it.

TheGodfather wrote:And you have completely missed my first point. I have been to the supposed "breeding grounds" of the "white nazi racist gun slinging biggots" over and over again and not seen one. Now if they are so few that I can't even find them, I'd say that's a small enough number that they shouldn't have any effect on stereotypes. So if the stereotype does exist, then it must exist because someone with an agenda (liberal media) WANTS it to exist and continually streams the message.

You want to counter the image? Stop supporting networks, politicians, etc...that continually feed it.

A political rally is not the birthplace of the stereotype. The small towns of backroads America, "that guy" in the neighborhood, "that group" right down a city street - these are places giving birth to the stereotype. Again, you totally missed the point in your zealous crusade to paint it as just the wild imagination of the liberal media. For every one person that fits the stereotype, we need hundreds to counter it.

Look at the other stereotypes - the black gangbanger, the lazy Latino, the conniving Asian. They are the minority of those races, yet that's the image often portrayed. It takes many to counter that image. The same holds for gun owners.

Again, don't dismiss someone else's experiences. Have you ever had a hooded member of the Klan say he's gonna gut you? Had some idiot throw a shell into a shotgun and say he wants to shoot him a gook? No? Your experiences don't negate mine.

If you read my posts, you'd also note that I don't say "everyone is like this!". Instead, I say - again - that for every person that fits the stereotype, we must work harder to counter it. Now, if you can provide something other than a straw man to continue the debate, I'll welcome your continued discussion.

Mindflayer wrote:

TheGodfather wrote:And you have completely missed my first point. I have been to the supposed "breeding grounds" of the "white nazi racist gun slinging biggots" over and over again and not seen one. Now if they are so few that I can't even find them, I'd say that's a small enough number that they shouldn't have any effect on stereotypes. So if the stereotype does exist, then it must exist because someone with an agenda (liberal media) WANTS it to exist and continually streams the message.

You want to counter the image? Stop supporting networks, politicians, etc...that continually feed it.

A political rally is not the birthplace of the stereotype. The small towns of backroads America, "that guy" in the neighborhood, "that group" right down a city street - these are places giving birth to the stereotype. Again, you totally missed the point in your zealous crusade to paint it as just the wild imagination of the liberal media. For every one person that fits the stereotype, we need hundreds to counter it.

Look at the other stereotypes - the black gangbanger, the lazy Latino, the conniving Asian. They are the minority of those races, yet that's the image often portrayed. It takes many to counter that image. The same holds for gun owners.

Again, don't dismiss someone else's experiences. Have you ever had a hooded member of the Klan say he's gonna gut you? Had some idiot throw a shell into a shotgun and say he wants to shoot him a gook? No? Your experiences don't negate mine.

If you read my posts, you'd also note that I don't say "everyone is like this!". Instead, I say - again - that for every person that fits the stereotype, we must work harder to counter it. Now, if you can provide something other than a straw man to continue the debate, I'll welcome your continued discussion.

People create stereotypes. Generally, they all have some truth to them (given a big enough sample space nearly anything is bound to occur...one in a million chance per day means it happens 300 times a day in the US and 6,000 times a day in the world). However, unless you have some statistics to back up the stereotype, it isn't indicative of the group.

The difference is what stereotypes do the politicians and media push. Generally, they don't push the black gangbanger or lazy Latino or the conniving Asian as they shouldn't. Pushing stereotypes isn't helping the discussion, so they should stay away from them. However, when it comes to firearms, they push it till it breaks every chance they get.

CowboyT wrote:

gunderwood wrote: I reach out to people not involved in firearms all the time. I have taken many new shooters out (some very reluctant, some I'm still working on) and several have later bought firearms. Their politics didn't matter and they were all over the map.

People are reaching out all the time, that isn't the problem. We do have an image problem and we can thank the media, a bunch of liberals and even a few conservatives for that. We have an image that puts people off, but it isn't because the image is true, but rather that our enemies have successfully branded us as such. We do need to work at proving that image wrong and we don't have to change to accomplish that because that stereotype isn't us. We just have to work at getting the word out.

However, what I'm pretty sure we don't need is gun owners, of any political leanings, saying that stereotype has any validity.

That is what I didn't like about your piece. You know that isn't typical of gun owners, so why push the idea it is even partially true? You have people like that in any group, but that isn't indicative of the group as a whole. We don't teach that, nor do we support it. Firearms should be a neutral subject (in the national discussion threads we can debate anything Rick will let us... ).

Has it truly been your experience that most gun owners are like that? I hope not. Instead of pushing the negative stereotype, why don't you focus on most gun owners and your positive experiences with them as a counter to said stereotype? That seems more constructive to me.

Depends on where I've been in the country. If you're talking about San Francisco or Seattle, then no. But throughout my travels in the South, including my experience here in VA, the answer has unfortunately been yes. The things I described seeing in the piece are things I've actually seen and heard. And you should hear some of the stories my Dad and others have told me throughout the years across the nation. Just...wow.... So yes, it does have some validity.

Despite all that, I love going to gun shows! I love target practice! I get a real kick out of being behind the VCDL booth! And that's why I'm behind that booth as often as possible. Folks will come in to a show who are scared of guns. A friend talked 'em into coming. Well, they see me with my barbecue gun (unloaded at the show, of course, per the rules), and that I'm a liberal (they REALLY don't expect to see that!), and they then feel comfortable talking with me. I've been told quite a few times, "you're OK, you're not one of the nutjobs/gun nuts/wingnuts/InsertOtherStereotypeWordHere." I wish you could be with me sometimes at the shows and see what I see, hear what I hear. I become an ambassador and explain what gun ownership really means, and that it's really non-partisan. I explain about VCDL folks like Sam Childress and Philip Van Cleave. I tell 'em about my parents. These things do help.

Here's an example. At the last Chantilly show, a Latin American family came to the VCDL booth. The father had just gotten into firearms pretty enthusiastically. See, he wanted to protect his family. His 16-year-old daughter was somewhat understanding of the idea, but his wife thought he went off the deep end. I talked with his wife and daughter for a bit, as her husband was actually off buying a Springfield XD (he came back in about 10 minutes). She indicated to me that she felt I wasn't a wingnut. She told me about how she thought the gun owners were all rednecks that just figured she and her family were "illegals". She related a few less-than-positive experiences about that. I assured her that not all of us are like that! The other folks at the booth saw the direction I was going and went with it. When we were done, she was visibly less uptight and far more relaxed. That's a win for us. Another guy who works the shows does the same kind of thing, and he's really good at it. I'm still learning from him.

I agree with you that we need to counter that stereotype, and that firearms should be a neutral subject. And that was the point of the piece. That's where our ambassadorship comes in. As a gun owner, yes, I will point out where we could be doing that better. And in a whole lot of cases, we could be and should be.

I'm white (and a Yankee by birth) and I've been kicked out of a Wendy's because of it. My family was told to go eat at the Wendy's on the other side of the highway where our people eat at. It happens, some people are bigots. Again, that isn't indicative of the whole population or group where that occurred. I've been out to CA more than I would like (for work) and I've heard racism against <insert color here> there too. Perhaps the only difference is that people in the South say it to your face rather than behind your back?

I've also been confronted why I was in "their" part of town while in Seattle. It was indirectly suggested my wife and I leave and get back to our side of town.

My experience has been that the left wingers just don't have the balls to say it to you, whereas the right wingers do (I'm generalizing just like you did with the south). Liberals often just wait until you aren't around to make a bad joke or comment about <insert derogatory name here>. I've not noticed any real difference in the density of bigots as a generalized geographic location. Micro-localities, like a small suburb of a major city or small town, are a different story. There you can get extreme bigotry and in high densities and they are not limited to just the south.

I think generally gun owners have a tendency to get a little bent out of shape when they find out someone is anti-gun, they feel like they are being attacked and go on the defensive and do a very good job beating the person over the head with pro-gun facts and figures. The problem with this is beating someone over the head with the Bible doesn't save them and the same thing goes for turning anti-gunners pro-gun or pro-2A.

Pretty much any anti-gunner I have ever spoken with is anti-gun because of ignorance induced fear so being super aggressively in your face pro-gun does nothing to change their mind.
Don't be shocked, awed and disappointed when you discover someone is anti-gun, ask why they are anti-gun and then you can address the issues they have with guns. Let them ask questions and ask them questions, don't continue to nag at them if they still disagree it only agitates the problem.
Quite a few of the anti-gunners I've talked with in the end decide they don't have a problem with other people owning/carrying guns they just weren't interested in owning any themselves, I take this as a win.

Gun owners tend to be very passionate about their guns, this is awesome! Don't change, just when you're trying to win someone over take it down a notch, chill, it makes a difference.
Now before I get the attacks I know are to come, what I have described here is not everyone. You may be very level headed yourself and never beat people over the head with pro-gun facts and figures, good for you and there are going to be people out there that there is just no talking to, get used to it. This is the awesome thing about humans, lots of variety!
This is not a political party issue, people on both sides of the fence have issues with guns. Forget about the forest and look at the trees, this is an issue about individuals. This is battle that is not going to be won if you fight it like a war.

Mindflayer wrote:A political rally is not the birthplace of the stereotype.

I never said that, so why the argument?

Mindflayer wrote:Again, you totally missed the point in your zealous crusade to paint it as just the wild imagination of the liberal media. For every one person that fits the stereotype, we need hundreds to counter it.

Again, you have missed MY point. We DO have hundreds (more likely thousands) for every whacko out there, but it doesn't do a dang thing. So long as politicians and networks have an agenda, it doesn't matter how many of us there are or how well we behave - the stereotype will continue to be flashing on our tvs telling us that those few nutcases are the majority and the norm.

Mindflayer wrote:Again, don't dismiss someone else's experiences. Have you ever had a hooded member of the Klan say he's gonna gut you? Had some idiot throw a shell into a shotgun and say he wants to shoot him a gook? No? Your experiences don't negate mine.

I don't dismiss your experience. I also don't buy into the argument that blacks are greater victims of racism than anyone else (Not saying you said that, but it's an argument I hear a lot). Your experience is no different than if I were cornered in a parking lot by a black, hispanic or asian gang threatening to kill me. Sh*t happens to all "races", so why is it always such a big deal when it happens to one "race" and not the other? Simple, there's a political agenda.

Mindflayer wrote:If you read my posts, you'd also note that I don't say "everyone is like this!".

Never said that either.

Thank you, srwg9mm. You, too, clearly understood what I was actually saying. And that is, we as a pro-gun community need to stop getting our dukes up and start being better ambassadors.

Those who want to say "they do it too! they do it too!" as TheGodfather just did with Mindflayer, are not helping our cause of promoting the 2A. Yes, that is throwing up strawman arguments. Feels good, maybe, but it still doesn't help us. As srwg9mm pointed out, this is not a battle that's going to be won if you fight it like a war. Instead, fight it like a diplomat.

CowboyT wrote:Thank you, srwg9mm. You, too, clearly understood what I was actually saying. And that is, we as a pro-gun community need to stop getting our dukes up and start being better ambassadors.

Those who want to say "they do it too! they do it too!" as TheGodfather just did with Mindflayer, are not helping our cause of promoting the 2A. Yes, that is throwing up strawman arguments. Feels good, maybe, but it still doesn't help us. As srwg9mm pointed out, this is not a battle that's going to be won if you fight it like a war. Instead, fight it like a diplomat.

Hogwash! She just likes disagreeing with me.

CowboyT wrote:Those who want to say "they do it too! they do it too!" as TheGodfather just did with Mindflayer, are not helping our cause of promoting the 2A.

You CLEARLY didn't read ANYTHING I said. I'm not going to continue repeating myself, so go back and try a little reading comprehension.

gunderwood wrote:

CowboyT wrote:Thank you, srwg9mm. You, too, clearly understood what I was actually saying. And that is, we as a pro-gun community need to stop getting our dukes up and start being better ambassadors.

Those who want to say "they do it too! they do it too!" as TheGodfather just did with Mindflayer, are not helping our cause of promoting the 2A. Yes, that is throwing up strawman arguments. Feels good, maybe, but it still doesn't help us. As srwg9mm pointed out, this is not a battle that's going to be won if you fight it like a war. Instead, fight it like a diplomat.

Hogwash! She just likes disagreeing with me.

TheGodfather wrote:

CowboyT wrote:Those who want to say "they do it too! they do it too!" as TheGodfather just did with Mindflayer, are not helping our cause of promoting the 2A.

You CLEARLY didn't read ANYTHING I said. I'm not going to continue repeating myself, so go back and try a little reading comprehension.

Very classy there, Godfather. Very classy.

Gunderwood, well played there. That was good.

Mindflayer wrote:When you run into white guys with t-shirts depicting our president being hung or shot, all carrying firearms, and liberally dropping "negro" and "coon" and "gook" it sets us all back quite a bit. That's why we have to work harder to counter that image. The anti-gunners will focus on it and paint us all with the same brush.

I dont care for these types either but no matter what we do short of dropping our weapons and going over to their side the anti gunners will paint us the same way...nothing we can do to stop that...