Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Apparently, Corbon has a loading for compacts: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corb ... %20DPX.htm

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on this.

Y'all watch too many B-movies...

WRW wrote:I can't vouch for these tests or their methods...this site claims professional testing: http://45-acp.com/ammo.html

Anyone can claim "professional" testing and there is so much missing from this test I don't know where to begin. These "tests" don't provide the procedure or ballistics medium. Did they only fire one round? Was the medium calibrated so the results are even comparable? Note that the wax tubes I mentioned before are not calibrated and they make no claims about the observed results and actual wounds in humans. They could have shot them into water for all we know (water has been shown to make everything expand really well. Phone books? They only provided expansion, but that is only part of the story. What about penetration? Are the expansion numbers max, average, where is the std dev? Etc. Etc.

Anyone notice that Federal was the only brand whose velocity remained flat across all barrels? How is that physically possible without changing the powder type and charge?

Here is a marginally better test on that same sight: http://45-acp.com/ballistics.html
Notice that the velocity is where is should be for a short barrel. Different barriers were tested and the rounds performance changed significantly too. However, this looks a lot like manufacturer data and is missing most of the key points I listed above.

Not .45, but gives you an idea what a better test looks like:
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/tests.htm
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Ballistic_ ... /Test5.htm

Here is some better (but far from perfect) .45 data: http://www.brassfetcher.com/45ACP.html (again, short barrel means 3.8" which isn't really short by CC standard but only by 1911 standards)

Quality testing is hard and expensive. Any sort of test I have the resources to do is amateurish at best, but it is fun. Manufacturers spend a lot of time optimizing ammo for various platforms and generally, if you buy ammo for a name brand and shoot it out of a gun similar to their test data, you can't do much better than that. Choose bonded if you can afford it and want better average performance when encountering barriers. Otherwise, non-bonded bullets tend to have better bare gel data. I prefer bonded as I can find no significance to the difference.

Regular ammo is tested out of 5" barrels for .45, while the other calibers are usually tested out of 4"; occasionally 4.5". Short barrel .45 is done in 4" and seems to perform just fine, but 4" is short only by 1911 standards. A sub-compact .45 with a 2.5-3" barrel is a different story (and what we have been arguing about for quite some time). I know of no manufacturer who tests their ammo in barrels this short. I know of no real testing which does so either. The shortest "good" data I can find is 3.8".

gunderwood wrote:

WRW wrote:I can't vouch for these tests or their methods...this site claims professional testing: http://45-acp.com/ammo.html

Anyone can claim "professional" testing and there is so much missing from this test I don't know where to begin.

I said I couldn't vouch for 'em. I just thought some would find it interesting that some slower rounds expanded better than the same round did at higher velocities.

Even the "scientific" testing in no way can replicate the variables of bullets fired into actual living beings...it only approximates the consistency of a human that had been run through a blender, hair, teeth and eyeballs...and gives an indication of relative power one round to the next.

The bottom line is that the .45 round, even ball ammo and/or unexpanded ammo, has a long and impressive history of being one of the best rounds available when projected at around 830-860 fps. That'll be my final words on the subject.

Diomed wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on this.

Y'all watch too many B-movies...

.22 pistols were one of the favorite weapons of many mafia hit men. They would place the barrel right behind the ear, about even with the ear lobe and when the round entered the skull it would strike the brain and then due to the speed and light bullet weight it would bounce off the far side of the skull and ricochet around in the skull cavity doing a ton of damage to the brain. This isn't from a B movie, I have heard it discussed frequently. My two uncles were both police officers in Washington DC during the 60's and 70's and they have seen the results up close. Yes they also saw mob hits with shotguns and .45 caliber head shots, but the .22 was a favorite during that time period. The mafia didn't do drive by's where they shot up a whole street. They liked to walk right up on someone and pop them in the skull.

Up close and personnel, the only way to fly. LOL
Bill

Diomed wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on this.

Y'all watch too many B-movies...

This aint from watching B movies. Its a plain fact....

zephyp wrote:This aint from watching B movies. Its a plain fact....

Check out the Amphibian S or Badlander pistols made by AWC... http://www.awcsystech.com/

Originally developed for Amphibious Special Warfare Operations, the Amphibian S has undergone 13 variations over 29 years making it the most advanced and sought after integrated .22 cal. suppressor system in the world.

Seems it's good enough for some specials ops folks....

And not to further high-jack the thread - as for a .45 for c/c - why not? If it suits you - go for it. It's been said a lot of times in a lot of places - shoot what you can shoot well.... The first rule of gun fights - bring a gun.... and second to that - a miss with a cannon is still a miss.....

firstcavapache64 wrote:.22 pistols were one of the favorite weapons of many mafia hit men. They would place the barrel right behind the ear, about even with the ear lobe and when the round entered the skull it would strike the brain and then due to the speed and light bullet weight it would bounce off the far side of the skull and ricochet around in the skull cavity doing a ton of damage to the brain. This isn't from a B movie, I have heard it discussed frequently. My two uncles were both police officers in Washington DC during the 60's and 70's and they have seen the results up close. Yes they also saw mob hits with shotguns and .45 caliber head shots, but the .22 was a favorite during that time period. The mafia didn't do drive by's where they shot up a whole street. They liked to walk right up on someone and pop them in the skull.

I am well aware of the popularity of .22s. They're big in Japan too. I take issue with the silencer comment. They've been slandered in this country for seventy years, to the point that even people who should know better buy it.

I would like to clear up a problem that I have seen over many years of people watching television. There is no such thing as a SILENCER there are in fact suppresors and sioncics. No weapon can be silenced that is available to the public through a gun shop or mail order. A revolver cannot be silenced as long as there is a gap between the cylinder and the forceing cone. A semi auto will make noise as the bolt is withdrawn and anything over the speed of sound will make a crack when going through the air. I have shot many types of weapons from Swedish K 9 MM sub machineguns with the Delta Foce boy's to M-14 rifles with the Marines and all types of handguns (semi autos) over the past 45 or so years and none of then were silent.
Bill

Diomed wrote:

firstcavapache64 wrote:.22 pistols were one of the favorite weapons of many mafia hit men. They would place the barrel right behind the ear, about even with the ear lobe and when the round entered the skull it would strike the brain and then due to the speed and light bullet weight it would bounce off the far side of the skull and ricochet around in the skull cavity doing a ton of damage to the brain. This isn't from a B movie, I have heard it discussed frequently. My two uncles were both police officers in Washington DC during the 60's and 70's and they have seen the results up close. Yes they also saw mob hits with shotguns and .45 caliber head shots, but the .22 was a favorite during that time period. The mafia didn't do drive by's where they shot up a whole street. They liked to walk right up on someone and pop them in the skull.

I am well aware of the popularity of .22s. They're big in Japan too. I take issue with the silencer comment. They've been slandered in this country for seventy years, to the point that even people who should know better buy it.

That is the whole point of the NFA. They couldn't ban them, but they realized that a long strategy that could work is make the process difficult, time consuming, confusing, expensive ($200 tax to make one, $200 takes to transfer one, and several $k in manufacturers license fees) and people will generally not own them. That in of it's self is a win, but when you consider that once only a fee people own them, mythology takes precidence over facts, even of gun owners. Wild stories get circulated and very few people have the experience to counter them.

SgtBill is right, they are far from silent. Once I get my .50bmg suppressor transfered, I'll let me know if low 140dB is "silent."

There is a noticable difference witha suppressor, but that is mostly because the significantly reduce the concussion wave, which is the dominate sound when firing the rifle.

WRW wrote:Apparently, Corbon has a loading for compacts: http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corb ... %20DPX.htm

Awesome. Missed this link before. That is the first 3" barrel tested ammo from a manufacturer I know of. Corbon is good stuff too. The whole DPX bullet seems to be very good, perhaps even better than the tactical bonded bullets. I have shot some DPX to check it out, but I will be waiting till there is a decent amount of street results before jumping ship. If often takes years for a new bullet design to prove itself or not. Same with the HSTs. They seem to have great expansion in gel, but there isn't much info about their street performance yet.

Edit: for anyone who didn't know, the Corbon DPX uses these Barnes bullets: http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/m ... l-bullets/

Getting back to the original question, have you checked out the glock 30? I have steered away from Glocks since I held my first one. I just never liked the grip angle (naturally aimed high). But I held a G30 subcompact today and it felt GREAT in my hand. I guess there was nothing for my fat palm to get in the way of. With the little pinky extension on the mag, it felt just as good as a full sized. If I wasn't out to buy a gun that my wife can also shoot I would buy a 30.

+1 on the Glock 30, I love mine as it is my dailyCC. It is small enough to carry everyday and I love the accuracy. Recoil is not bad considering it's a 3.75" polymer pistol. The crossbreed supertuck makes it very comfortable to carry all day.

I'm not real high on big bullets for CC. It boils down to, it's a pistol - caliber is a very distant third in importance to where the bullet hits and whether the gun works.

But then I'm a revolver nut, so my conclusions are probably suspect.

SgtBill wrote:There is no such thing as a SILENCER there are in fact suppresors and sioncics.

Silencer is the correct term. It is not descriptive of function. The principal inventor called them that, and the law refers to them as such. The "suppressor" business is a recent invention of the mall ninja faction.

"Muffler" is probably more accurate. And also a legal term for them!

I'm guessing by "scioncics" you mean SIONICS, which is an acronym of "Studies In the Operational Negation of Insurgents and Counter-Subversion", a company that developed silencers in the 1960s and was closely associated with the Military Armament Corporation.

gunderwood wrote:Wild stories get circulated and very few people have the experience to counter them.

Very true.

Some light reading on criminal use of silencers (pdf).

Diomed wrote:I'm not real high on big bullets for CC. It boils down to, it's a pistol - caliber is a very distant third in importance to where the bullet hits and whether the gun works.

But then I'm a revolver nut, so my conclusions are probably suspect.

See, Diomed is a gun nut and if he gets his way it will be the wild west all over again, wheel guns and all.

Diomed wrote:

SgtBill wrote:There is no such thing as a SILENCER there are in fact suppresors and sioncics.

Silencer is the correct term. It is not descriptive of function. The principal inventor called them that, and the law refers to them as such. The "suppressor" business is a recent invention of the mall ninja faction.

"Muffler" is probably more accurate. And also a legal term for them!

I'm guessing by "scioncics" you mean SIONICS, which is an acronym of "Studies In the Operational Negation of Insurgents and Counter-Subversion", a company that developed silencers in the 1960s and was closely associated with the Military Armament Corporation.

Yes, silencer is the correct term, but the class 3 dealers keep putting suppressor on my paperwork and it goes through...

I have a theory on the term silencer. A silencers primary contribution is removing the concussion wave, which helps significantly with the shooters perception of noise. Maxim is credited with creating the first silencer, but you have to remember these guys had been around cannons, Gatling guns, rifles, etc. for extended periods with little or no hearing protection. Thus, with damaged hearing it probably does sound silent!

History

Patent drawing from Maxim's 1908 silencer patent 916,885[3]Early suppressors were created around the beginning of the 20th century by several inventors. American inventor Hiram Maxim is credited with inventing and selling the first commercially successful models circa 1902. Maxim gave his device the trademarked name Maxim Silencer. The muffler for internal combustion engines was developed in parallel with the firearm suppressor by Maxim in the early 20th century, using many of the same techniques to provide quieter-running engines. Indeed, in many European countries, automobile mufflers are still referred to as "silencers." The term silencer has since fallen out of favor among the firearms industry, being replaced with the more accurate term sound suppressor or just suppressor. Common usage and U.S. legislative language favor the historically earlier term, silencer. In U.S. law, the terms "firearm muffler" and "firearm silencer" are synonymous.[4]

Suppressors were regularly used by agents of the United States Office of Strategic Services, who favored the newly-designed High Standard HDM .22 Long Rifle pistol during World War II. OSS Director William Joseph "Wild Bill" Donovan demonstrated the pistol for President Franklin D. Roosevelt at the White House. According to OSS research chief Stanley Lovell,[5] Donovan (an old and trusted friend of the President) was waved into the Oval Office, where Roosevelt was dictating a letter. While Roosevelt finished his message, Donovan turned his back and fired ten shots into a sandbag he had brought with him, announced what he had done and handed the smoking gun to the astonished president.

[edit] Just because Mr. Maxim called it a silencer will not make it correct in todays world. And please excuse the typo on Sionics.

Bill

SgtBill wrote:History

Patent drawing from Maxim's 1908 silencer patent 916,885[3]Early suppressors were created around the beginning of the 20th century by several inventors. American inventor Hiram Maxim is credited with inventing and selling the first commercially successful models circa 1902. Maxim gave his device the trademarked name Maxim Silencer. The muffler for internal combustion engines was developed in parallel with the firearm suppressor by Maxim in the early 20th century, using many of the same techniques to provide quieter-running engines. Indeed, in many European countries, automobile mufflers are still referred to as "silencers." The term silencer has since fallen out of favor among the firearms industry, being replaced with the more accurate term sound suppressor or just suppressor. Common usage and U.S. legislative language favor the historically earlier term, silencer. In U.S. law, the terms "firearm muffler" and "firearm silencer" are synonymous.[4]

Suppressors were regularly used by agents of the United States Office of Strategic Services, who favored the newly-designed High Standard HDM .22 Long Rifle pistol during World War II. OSS Director William Joseph "Wild Bill" Donovan demonstrated the pistol for President Franklin D. Roosevelt at the White House. According to OSS research chief Stanley Lovell,[5] Donovan (an old and trusted friend of the President) was waved into the Oval Office, where Roosevelt was dictating a letter. While Roosevelt finished his message, Donovan turned his back and fired ten shots into a sandbag he had brought with him, announced what he had done and handed the smoking gun to the astonished president.

[edit] Just because Mr. Maxim called it a silencer will not make it correct in todays world. And please excuse the typo on Sionics.

Bill

If you didn't know this response was coming, you haven't been paying attention. Thanks Bill for the Roosevelt story, probably not a good idea in today's administration.

Great history lesson Bill...good for us to know our heritage even if its currently shunned...