If you got a good deal or great service from a shop or range and you want to brag about them, here's the place to do it. Likewise, if you are unhappy about someone's service or feel like you've been ripped off, we want to know that too!
KaosDad wrote:OK, because I cannot resist a hornet's nest.....
You and me both.
KaosDad wrote:You can count the number of firing ranges in NOVA on one hand. You can count the number of quality ranges on about two fingers.
This is a big problem. There is what, SEG, NRA, Blue Ridge, and Sharpshooters? Of course there are the Issac Walton leagues too. Did I miss any? I guess we could argue what is technically NOVA. There is a range off of Rt 1 in Stafford, but I can't remember its name. That is far to few ranges for the number of gun owners in NOVA. Zoning and insurance have put a big hurt on ranges IMHO.
There is also the airport syndrome; we put ranges out in the sticks, but as things get built up people start complaining about the noise and such. It is a shame the public is so misinformed about suppressors. We can all live in peace, but silly laws are making it hard in this case.
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allingeneral wrote:I'll never go there... and I hope federal contracting doesn't work out for them either.
I don;t understand how someone can run a business selling to the 2nd amendment and then vote for and financially support the most anti-gun candidate to run for the presidency in decades.
Makes me sick to my stomach. I can;t even find an emoticon that's fitting :-/
Did you know some pornographers are Republicans? Apparently the Republicans pro-business message resonates with them nicely. Perhaps these people have a similar reason for being with the Democrats?
Kreutz wrote:Perhaps these people have a similar reason for being with the Democrats?
Well, since their business objective is to secure contracts training government goons on how to use guns, and the Democrat position is to ensure that only government goons have guns, I'd say that yes, they do have a very clear business interest in seeing Democrats elected.
If you bring politics into it you can count the number of NOVA ranges on ONE finger. And I've never been to the NRA range so I won't comment on quality.
I was there on Friday (January 14), first time since their remodeling. I wanted to use the 50 yard range to zero-in a new (albeit cheap) scope I bought, but the 50 yard range wasn't going to open until 4:30pm (this is at about 1-2pm). So I had to either use the 25-yarder or go to NRA. Because I live in Ashburn, I stayed at SEG because a) I didn't feel like driving over to NRA and b) I definitely didn't want to fight Friday-Rush-Hour traffic on the way back. So I paid my $25 (which is one benefit on NRA's side... WAY cheaper) and went to one of the 25 yard ranges.
I don't know why they wouldn't have the longest range open first, and then open the smaller ones as needed. You can shoot 25 yards on the 50 yard range, but not the other way around. My guess is, because they have 2 side-by-side ranges with one Range Safety Officer booth that can see both, they do this. Where if you open the 50 yard range, you have to have that RSO booth manned too.
So I get into the range, and there wasn't any chairs, no table, one stapler (for the targets), and no gun-barrel rests/bags. I'd been here before (maybe 3 other times) and don't remember it being this "empty" of items that I'm use to seeing at a range. I know the NRA range has chairs and barrel rests, and everyone gets there own stapler (Take that "Office Space!"). I went to some real low budget range in Florida and even they had these items (except the stapler... instead they used clothes pins, which didn't work real well. Then again it was only $9 an hour).
Anyways, I did my best to zero the scope by kneeling and resting the mag on the bench. Not very comfortable on my already-shot knees. Or my back for that matter. For shooting handgun, not having a seat and barrel rest would've been fine. But for a rifle it was just a really poor experience. And for $25 an hour, I figure they can supply some extras. Do I really need to bring EVERYTHING with me to enjoy my range time? At SEG, apparently so.
Also, they must've been busy, since about the minute my hour was up, they gave me notice. Again, if it's so busy, why not open the 50 yard range? It's nice when you go to the range and get to coast over your time a bit (and one time when I was at SEG I went over like 45 minutes, so can't complain about that outing). I know if NRA is busy, they'll get you out after your hour is up as well. But with $25 spent for a very no-frills 1 hour of range time, it was disappointing icing on a disappointing cake.
The staff was nice, which is my typical experience there. There's only one guy there that's been a little dicky, but everybody else is always cool. Luckily, on this trip I had hardly any interaction with the dicky guy.
I guess I'm going to start just heading over to NRA, unless I'm really strapped for time. I know everyone has their experiences, preferences, and opinions: These are just mine. I'm a bit of a novice, so maybe the "experts" feel differently. But as a consumer, I just didn't feel like I got my money's worth.
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"Don't drink that poison! That's $4 an ounce!"
-Groucho to Harpo in "A Day at the Races"
I've been shooting at SEG 4 times over the last 6 months, NRA once, and Sharpshooter's twice. I can definitely say SEG is my favorite of those three. The only big downside for me is the drive (takes between 45-90 minutes, depending on traffic).
Aside from the range, though, the service I've gotten there is better than anywhere else I've been. The young guy at the register (Dave) has been tremendously helpful on more than one occasion. A friend and I had suppressors sent there and have been fooling around with the paperwork; a few weeks ago we drove up on a Saturday without calling first (OUR mistake) only to find out the lady that handles the Class III stuff doesn't work weekends. While this was obviously our fault, Dave was very apologetic and offered us free rental, range time, eyes/ears, paper targets, all we had to do was buy ammo. Hopefully I'm not getting him in trouble for this, because I can say it left me with a great impression of the range and makes me willing to drive past 2 other ranges to go to SEG, because IMO, that's where I'll get the best service.
SEG is great until some jerk brings a 50BMG during the busy hours. Approaching 180dB in a confined space is just too much for one set of plugs/muffs and for the most part no one else has doubled up on hearing protection. You are damaging their hearing...
I don't bring mine there for exactly that reason. Either bring it during off hours or get a suppressor.
/rant off
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Diomed wrote:People shoot on indoor ranges with only one set of earpro? Seems like a bad idea all around, regardless of the calibers involved.
I rarely see doubles. I sometimes wear double, but not usually. The maximum pressure is not much more than outdoors...dB is a log scale. If it is 1-2dB louder inside it isn't going to harm your hearing with just one set.
The problem is that a 50BMG is 10-15dB louder and the muzzle break directs it towards the lanes next to you.
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Indoors you've got the sound waves bouncing off the floors, walls, and ceiling, instead of dissipating as they do outside. Add in a dozen or so other shooters firing at the same time and it's punishing even with double earpro.
The only time I don't double up indoors is when I'm shooting a match and need to have some hearing capability. Since there's only one shooter at a time it's not quite as bad.
dB is a log scale and you can cut out about 1-2 additional dB using plugs under muffs. You still cant block all the noise but you can achieve max protection. I sometimes double up indoors especially if someone if firing a mag. My problem is already suffering hearing loss I cant have any type of meaningful conversation. Hard enough to do with just muffs and no shooting.
No more catchy slogans for me...I am simply fed up...4...four...4...2+2...
Diomed wrote:Indoors you've got the sound waves bouncing off the floors, walls, and ceiling, instead of dissipating as they do outside. Add in a dozen or so other shooters firing at the same time and it's punishing even with double earpro.
The only time I don't double up indoors is when I'm shooting a match and need to have some hearing capability. Since there's only one shooter at a time it's not quite as bad.
That is all true, but sound power falls off as a power of 3 with distance...those secondary "sources" are significantly less powerful and occur after the primary source has dropped. Yes, it is louder, but as I said before it really only is a few peak dB at a nice indoor range like SEG. Perception can be and often is very different than actual measurements. The play on perception is mostly due IMHO to the fact that while peak isn't much higher, it is sustained for a longer time. I.e. the average pressure (which is much less than the peak) is higher over the same duration.
I've never seen any data which suggests that the increase in dB is sufficient to require double earpro to meet OSHA standards. The increase is usually about the same difference as a M4/AR15 is to a 9mm...just a few dB.
zephyp wrote:dB is a log scale and you can cut out about 1-2 additional dB using plugs under muffs. You still cant block all the noise but you can achieve max protection. I sometimes double up indoors especially if someone if firing a mag. My problem is already suffering hearing loss I cant have any type of meaningful conversation. Hard enough to do with just muffs and no shooting.
The dB do not add linearly. Cutting 1-2dB would be almost useless in terms of actually protecting your hearing...it just isn't that much. If you have good muffs 25-30dB averaged reduction and good plugs which do about the same, the muffs will only add more like 10dB of protection to the plugs. I.e. your total would be closer to 35-40dB from the data I've seen.
It's important to understand that it isn't all about peak dB, but also about duration, frequency and testing methods. For example, Surefire's adaptive earpro gets low ratings when tested because the testing dB is low enough that it lets most of it pass through. However, at the dB of most gunfire they perform significantly better. If you notice Surefire is always specing the dB reduction with the stoppers in...IIRC that's because the standard testing method would only give them single digit dB ratings without the stoppers. However, even without the stoppers they get 20-25dB at gunfire dBs. The testing method skews the results and isn't all that useful for impulse noise in the power ranges of gunfire.
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The issue of sound metering is one I've dealt with in the past in the realm of silencer testing. My stance is the same: meters are interesting but provide only a very small slice of what's actually happening in the real world. Reality is a pesky thing, tends to mess up all sorts of stuff that works really great in theory.
Diomed wrote:The issue of sound metering is one I've dealt with in the past in the realm of silencer testing. My stance is the same: meters are interesting but provide only a very small slice of what's actually happening in the real world. Reality is a pesky thing, tends to mess up all sorts of stuff that works really great in theory.
You simply need better gear...
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zephyp wrote:Right it doesnt add linearly because its a log scale. Increasing protection by 2db is not insignificant.
2dB is a lot of power, but 2dB isn't going to make or break your ears. Let's say you have a 165dB sound and your earpro reduces that by 30dB. You would have 135dB left over. An increase of 3dB would double the power, but at 138dB your still not in the hearing damage range for the type of sound according to the government.
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I don't get into religious debates, and sound metering is a subset of that.
All I'm saying is that if your gear doesn't do a FFT it likely isn't telling you anything useful. Your complaint about the test vs. reality is likely mostly or even entirely due to the testing methods being flawed for what you actually want to measure.
The flawed testing method/assumption is that peak dB means something more than it actually does for a suppressor. I.e. lower is better. Peak dB is used because of the government standards and it is easy, but it is practically useless for measuring sound quality...which is what you really care about with a suppressor unless you just want to verify it meets a hearing safe metric.
People get stuck on the milspec testing methods and assume that they must be useful for determining which suppressor is better, but that's entirely wrong. The milspec test exists to determine peak dB for hearing damage, not sound quality. If they want sound quality metrics they use much fancier equipment than a peak dB meter.
For example, can A may have a peak dB of 140 which is "loud," while can B is very "quite" at around 125dB. However, the sound quality of can A can be better than can B if it shifts the frequency outside of the human range. The milspec peak dB test would determine that technically both are hearing safe according to government standards and a different test would look at sound quality and determine that can A is better than can B. Peak dB is a power/intensity measurement, it can not determine which is perceived louder...it is useful for determining which sound may cause hearing damage as it is the energy per unit of time delivered which damages your hearing. The frequency of the sound is a critical part of this measurement and also in determining how well earpro works, but certain simplifying assumptions are made for the standards.
It's like trying to determine who has the faster car just by measuring how loud the exhaust is in peak dB.
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