Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Kreutz wrote:The fact you vanished for a bit and now said more or less the exact same thing
as me of all people forces me to ask....you didn't suffer massive head trauma and end up in a coma did you?

I'm worried about you now!

Assimilation is complete. Resistence is futile.

To say there is NO difference between Romney and Obama just blows my mind. Even if you think both candidates are bad chopices, it is rational and practical to vote for the lesser of two evils. To waste your vote on a 3rd party candidate with NO HOPE of getting elected and maybe cost the candidate who is the least objectionable candidate the election is - - well, I'm sorry, but it is just plain dumb.

Kreutz wrote:

gunderwood wrote:That's a tired arguement run out whenever there is no good reason to actually vote for a candidate. It's exactly why we are here in the first place. We replaced a Democrat statists with a Republican statist and wonder why the government keeps expanding its powers at the expense of the peoples liberty. Enough is enough.

I said the more or less exact same thing in a thread I made about a Virginian named Virgil Goode winning the primary of the Constitution party which I made to let people know they actually do have a real choice that matches the values of most posters here....I got called an Obama agent, which is actually the case as I am implementing directive #666 as we speak. Busted!

The fact you vanished for a bit and now said more or less the exact same thing
as me of all people forces me to ask....you didn't suffer massive head trauma and end up in a coma did you?

I'm worried about you now!

LOL

No, I'm fine. I argued the same thing when McCain was running.

dorminWS wrote:To say there is NO difference between Romney and Obama just blows my mind.

How about this...

There is no important difference between Romney and Obama.

Certainly there are differences, but nothing that really matters because both believe in the power of the state to run your life, they just differ on the details of how to accomplish it. Kind of like arguing over if it's a "penalty" or a "tax," end result is the same...less liberty.

dorminWS wrote:To say there is NO difference between Romney and Obama just blows my mind. Even if you think both candidates are bad chopices, it is rational and practical to vote for the lesser of two evils. To waste your vote on a 3rd party candidate with NO HOPE of getting elected and maybe cost the candidate who is the least objectionable candidate the election is - - well, I'm sorry, but it is just plain dumb.

How will you console yourself if you get your way and Romney wins, and then inevitably continues the same course of action as his predecessors?

"Well, at least I didn't waste my legally worthless anyway popular vote"?

Since everyone has the same attitude on 3rd parties, and thus they never win, isn't that a textbook self-fulfilling prophecy to you?

Kreutz wrote: How will you console yourself if you get your way and Romney wins, and then inevitably continues the same course of action as his predecessors?

Ah, you're assuming dorminWS falls into the 50% of Romney voters that think Romney is the economic and moral answer that this country has been looking for (hell you'd think if he was so great he would have been nominated four years ago). I think dorminWS falls into the other 50% of Romney voters that will vote for Romney simply because he's not Obama. I don't think he expects anything to change other than the White House decorations.

ShotgunBlast wrote:

Kreutz wrote: How will you console yourself if you get your way and Romney wins, and then inevitably continues the same course of action as his predecessors?

Ah, you're assuming dorminWS falls into the 50% of Romney voters that think Romney is the economic and moral answer that this country has been looking for (hell you'd think if he was so great he would have been nominated four years ago). I think dorminWS falls into the other 50% of Romney voters that will vote for Romney simply because he's not Obama. I don't think he expects anything to change other than the White House decorations.

Isn't that the definition of wasting your vote?

Too bad liberals are too dim to understand that a program adopted by a single State might not be the right thing to force on a nation. Seems like they would get it since at least Okreutz has abandoned a State that has already been fouled by the liberal buzztards and moved here!

A lot of conservatives are really angry now. Your benefactor is toast!

The recovery begins in November.

ShotgunBlast wrote:

Kreutz wrote: How will you console yourself if you get your way and Romney wins, and then inevitably continues the same course of action as his predecessors?

Ah, you're assuming dorminWS falls into the 50% of Romney voters that think Romney is the economic and moral answer that this country has been looking for (hell you'd think if he was so great he would have been nominated four years ago). I think dorminWS falls into the other 50% of Romney voters that will vote for Romney simply because he's not Obama. I don't think he expects anything to change other than the White House decorations.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh, I expect some changes. I expect that our POTUS will no longer be a cheerleader for European-style socialism. I expect some movement toward the center; or at least an attempt at it. I expect that the POTUS will not obstruct the efforts of more right-thinking legislators to curb galloping socialism and income redistribution. I expect that Romney as POTUS would not veto the repeal of Obamacare. Most importantly, I expect much less leftist Supereme Court nominees.

Would I have picked Romney as the nominee? Almost certainly not. Will I support him because he's immeasurably more fit to be POTUS than Obama? You're damn skippy I will. Is any non-socialist or gun-rights advocate soft-headed if he/she doesn't? Damn tootin' they are. That's not even a matter of opinion. It's so obvious it sticks out like a dog's b@lls.

A lot of things that need doing won't get done until things have shifted further right (if they ever do). You see, correcting the political mess we're in is sort of like winning at checkers: If you expect to get it done in one move, you don't understand the game.

dorminWS wrote:A lot of things that need doing won't get done until things have shifted further right (if they ever do). You see, correcting the political mess we're in is sort of like winning at checkers: If you expect to get it done in one move, you don't understand the game.

Ah, a true conservative. You lost the game 40 years ago and think you're still in it.

See how low you set the bar for Romney?

I expect that the POTUS will not obstruct the efforts of more right-thinking legislators to curb galloping socialism and income redistribution. I expect that Romney as POTUS would not veto the repeal of Obamacare. Most importantly, I expect much less leftist Supereme Court nominees.

These things would have been a given, hell, had never happened prior to the victory of the progressives in the late 60's/early 70's. You're operating in their paradigm, desperately fighting for crumbs of perceived freedom from government that you will never get back.

Romney did Obamacare first, and if you think Romney will take on the progressive income tax and welfare state (your income redistribution) you're way off into fantasy-land.

Hell, he already one upped Obamas executive decisions on minor illegal immigrants, he wants a "real long term solution"....so much for the "self-deportation" of the primaries.

Etch-a-Sketch Mitt is as trustworthy as a typical Masshole millionaire. Nevermind.

Kruetz you've got kids. I've got kids. I want them to have as much freedom as possible. I don't want them to grow up in a country that will coerce them to do will of the state by punitive taxes. The world over has seen enough of that. The kinder gentler version of it is the disaster that is going on in Europe right now. The full face of it is what happens in that system is what we see in china. I don't want any part of either. So even if you say I am fighting a losing battle.....so be it....some battles are worth fighting.

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mamabearCali wrote:Kruetz you've got kids. I've got kids. I want them to have as much freedom as possible. I don't want them to grow up in a country that will coerce them to do will of the state by punitive taxes. The world over has seen enough of that. The kinder gentler version of it is the disaster that is going on in Europe right now. The full face of it is what happens in that system is what we see in china. I don't want any part of either. So even if you say I am fighting a losing battle.....so be it....some battles are worth fighting.

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Well, I really believe freedom is largely illusory, to be truly free you must be an animal or a madman, to put a twist on Aristotle. I worry more for my kids future material well-being more than anything. For me like many it just boils down to economics; dollars and cents. Whoever can give me more is good, whoever would taketh is bad.

One more point on kids, hell, even if I manage to raise all four of mine to be neurosurgeons their future will still be shaky since they'll just have to compete with a neurosurgoen performing robotic telemetry brain surgery from Mumbai on a guy with an unstable cerebral aneurysm in Miami for a third of the price.

As for Europe, are you referring to the EU? 4 countries that should have never even been let into the EU (with the biggest example only squeaking in thanks to Goldman Sachs cooking their books) don't an example make much beyond due diligence.

The economies of the various Scandinavian countries are on a huge rise and will continue to do so as Arctic ice recedes, and those countries have welfare states that make even France look stingy, so you can't really draw a correlation based on a nations chosen economic model and its actual wealth. Greece, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal were always economic backwaters for the last 400 years...or mor ein the case of Greece and Portugal.

mamabearCali wrote:Kruetz you've got kids. I've got kids. I want them to have as much freedom as possible. I don't want them to grow up in a country that will coerce them to do will of the state by punitive taxes. The world over has seen enough of that. The kinder gentler version of it is the disaster that is going on in Europe right now. The full face of it is what happens in that system is what we see in china. I don't want any part of either. So even if you say I am fighting a losing battle.....so be it....some battles are worth fighting.

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+1

Especially the last sentence.

Really? Freedom is an illusion? Kruetz you can't be serious. There is a vast difference between how people in say n. Korea live vs even those who live in the people republic go kalifornia ( in my view one of the least free states in this country).


I believe in limited gov't. I'd rather my children learn to work and work hard than sit on their duff and receive gov't $$. Struggle is not bad, failure is not the end, but a new beginning. If my surgeon son has to compete with your surgeon son I think that will make them both better surgeons and better people in the end.

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mamabearCali wrote:Really? Freedom is an illusion? Kruetz you can't be serious. There is a vast difference between how people in say n. Korea live vs even those who live in the people republic go kalifornia ( in my view one of the least free states in this country).

Aren't both limited by what they can say and/or do from their governments in fundamentally the same way?

By threat of force?

After all, both can only say what they want within the "limits of free speech" that their governments set can't they? Its not hard for the Californian to say the "wroong" things and wind up afoul of the law now is it?

I believe in limited gov't. I'd rather my children learn to work and work hard than sit on their duff and receive gov't $$.

If it were that easy everyone would be doing it. There is no mythical sit around and collect welfare in any country really. In the US Clinton closed the loopholes that allowed it.

Struggle is not bad, failure is not the end, but a new beginning. If my surgeon son has to compete with your surgeon son I think that will make them both better surgeons and better people in the end.

The point is outsourcing really cut the knees out from under the American middle (and soon to be upper middle-many law school graduates have to compete with US trained lawyers in India doing all the case research they used to get to use for an entrance into law) class.

If you're happy with a race to the bottom, thats cool. I don't want to live in an American version of Mumbai, which is what will happen as wages go down and competition for resources goes up (along with prices) due to exploding populations.

It will make the last 30 years of stagnant wages seem like a paradise.

"Hey, where are all of your paralegals and extra office space to store your library of case law?"

"Oh, I let them all go a few years ago and have US trained paralegals in India do all the research for me. Less overhead on office rent, salary, and benefits and I get an email every morning with the research results. Best move I've made in years!"

Kreutz wrote: Aren't both limited by what they can say and/or do from their governments in fundamentally the same way?

By threat of force?

After all, both can only say what they want within the "limits of free speech" that their governments set can't they? Its not hard for the Californian to say the "wroong" things and wind up afoul of the law now is it?

Except supposedly in this country every law is supposed to be confined by the parameters of the US constitution. I say supposedly because the US Constitution seems to crapped on constantly by anyone and everyone in power no matter what letter is beside their name.

If it were that easy everyone would be doing it. There is no mythical sit around and collect welfare in any country really. In the US Clinton closed the loopholes that allowed it.

Sorry seen it myself with my own eyes. When I was young and not so experienced I hired a woman to watch my infant at a reasonable rate $125 a week for 4.5 hours a day (usually 4 days a week). She insisted I pay her in cash...I was young and so I did. Come to find out (months later) that the reason she wanted me to pay her in cash was that she was on disability and did not want the gov't to know anything about anything. We severed the relationship shortly thereafter. While she was in my acquaintance I met several people who ran similar scams. I was extraordinarily naive and did not recognize it for what it was until it was right in my face. The underbelly exists, I have seen it. I don't want my kids to have any part of it.

The point is outsourcing really cut the knees out from under the American middle (and soon to be upper middle-many law school graduates have to compete with US trained lawyers in India doing all the case research they used to get to use for an entrance into law) class.

If you're happy with a race to the bottom, thats cool. I don't want to live in an American version of Mumbai, which is what will happen as wages go down and competition for resources goes up (along with prices) due to exploding populations.

It will make the last 30 years of stagnant wages seem like a paradise.

That may be so, but you have only defined the problem not presented any solution. If you think this travesty of a bill or democrats in general are going to help any of this you have got another thing coming. I was young but I think it was Bush Sr. that started NAFTA, then Clinton signed it, then Clinton gave China a sweetheart trade deal.

Unless we have major changes very soon we are all screwed. Look around, other nations have been down this path. It is not pretty. Romney may not be able to stop our decent, but I Obama has got us with the afterburners on. If you think it is preferable to crash and burn more quickly I will simply say you have not studied enough history. The crash is terrible, but the lingering aftermath of such a crash can go on for generations. Perhaps a slowing then a stopping of this nonsense is still possible. I shall repeat what I said before. Even if we are doomed to fail some battles are worth fighting.

Outsourcing, but you really mean "offshoring", is a complex phenomenon driven by a number of factors, including:

1. Need to manufacture close to the customer to reduce transportation costs and time. (Lean manufacturing has increased the importance of this factor, which is why so many electronics factories are physically close in China and Taiwan.)
2. Need to manufacture in a tariff-closed market such as Europe to avoid punitive tariffs.
3. Yes, reduction of labor costs by manufacturing in low-wage countries.
4. Reduction of tax burden by manufacturing or otherwise adding value in low-tax countries. (Can be mitigated by lower taxes in the home country.)
5. Reduction of regulatory burden as in #4.
6. Reduction of foreign exchange risk by matching the currency of costs with the currency of income. (This drove the establishment by the Japanese and German car makers of plants in the US.)

All of these factors are dynamic. For example, many companies are quitting their operations in China due to Chinese inflation reducing the cost advantage and Chinese disrespect for intellectual property rights.

As to the choice between Romney and Obama, it is like the difference between a mild headache and decapitation. An easy decision.

Let it go, folks. Kreutz is just trollin'. He just like to annoy conservative Southerners. Might as well try to refute a horse passing wind.

mamabearCali wrote:Except supposedly in this country every law is supposed to be confined by the parameters of the US constitution. I say supposedly because the US Constitution seems to crapped on constantly by anyone and everyone in power no matter what letter is beside their name.

Thats kind of my point. The Powers That Be (in whatever nation they may be) got ther eby beng ruthless and cunning, why would any of them let a piece of paper stop them from having what they want; namely more control and power for themselves, and less for everyone else?

This is universal everywhere, though it may be more dramatic in some nations where a constitution is abolished in an act of government, the same thing has been happening here by degrees for some time, thus truly blurring the difference between "us" and "them" to me.

I genuinely feel no more or less "free" here than I did in say, Italy.