Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Jakeiscrazy wrote:

TheGearGuy wrote: You're going off old information. There has been a lot of recent studies about tourniquet use. They are now recommend for use for major tramua.

I'd suggest reading this:
http://www.remoteemergencycare.com/docu ... ets-gn.pdf

Especially page 2, including the foot notes. The part on "Reperfusion" especially applies. So... Bleed out in a few minutes, or have 2 hours to get to a hospital... I know my choice.

Excellent, and remember even if you lose an arm your still alive!

If you can't get to professional medical help in 6 hours, the chances are you're pretty much a goner anyways. Them's the cold hard facts.

tursiops wrote:Gear Guy, that's a great site and an interesting document! I note, however, it is from the UK, and unfortunately US guidelines for emergency care do not always agree with those from other countries....which has implications again in terms of good Samaritan laws and responder jeopardy.

Well, I was looking for something short and on-topic. Instead of telling folks to go read through the Tactical Combat Casualty Care curriculum, which says the same poop.

http://www.health.mil/Education_And_Training/TCCC.aspx

ResQ-Pak makes a nice, small, & sealed kit
http://www.resq-pak.com/products.php#products8

I guess it comes down to budget. I'd add this to a basic 1st Aid kit for the unfortunate blow-out. Theses are pretty convenient in the way they fit in any outdoor bag or briefcase.

Here is the kit we are issued and carry on our FLC's the only addition is we cary a pack or 2 of Quick clot as well, as others have stated it is only to be used in the event of a severe wound.it causes severe burns and tissue damage we usually draw a red cross on the pouch so you can tell which one it is as we tend to carry alot of sh#t these days, Ideally you want to use the casualties kit on them and keep yours intact in case you suffer wounds yourself. In the event of a sucking chest wound the plastic wrapper from the dressing with tape around it will do.


http://www.usamma.army.mil/assets/docs/IFAK.pdf

acguy45 wrote:Here is the kit we are issued and carry on our FLC's the only addition is we cary a pack or 2 of Quick clot as well, as others have stated it is only to be used in the event of a severe wound.it causes severe burns and tissue damage we usually draw a red cross on the pouch so you can tell which one it is as we tend to carry alot of sh#t these days, Ideally you want to use the casualties kit on them and keep yours intact in case you suffer wounds yourself. In the event of a sucking chest wound the plastic wrapper from the dressing with tape around it will do.


http://www.usamma.army.mil/assets/docs/IFAK.pdf

Isn't the Combat Gauze was embedded with QuickClot?

Ya know, it may be dated information I'm remembering, but MAST was not removed in the field for fear of shock and tourniquets were not removed in the field for fear of losing the clot and the natural clotting agents in the area of the bleed.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:

Isn't the Combat Gauze was embedded with QuickClot?[/quote]


yes it is but it is advisable to carry more .In the event of an IED or mortar strike you may be dealing with a casualty missing more than one limb or having several wounds from shrapnel.

We were taught to periodically loosen tourniquets if there was a chance of saving the limb. Obviously you'd never loosen in a full amputation until they got to the OR.

We also had no civil liabilities to worry about.

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I got the 'being prepared" bug about a week ago and that let to the "first aid" bug. From there I started looking into a "Blow Out Kit". For those who don't know a Blow Out Kit is a refers to a medical kit to treat life threatening wounds. I definitely like the concept but get would like to get basic training in the use of one. Does anyone know were I could find said training? Also how many of you guys have BOKs that you keep handy?

Join the Marines or Army...

From what I understand the don't spend much time on first aid as it is. IIRC the hardest thing is an IV? Blow out kits are basically this:

1. Put on gloves if you can.
2. Remove clothing that is around the wound...don't be afraid to cut it up.
3. Assess wound...if it is life threating execute step 4, otherwise proceed to step 5.
4. Open and poor anti-clot powder directly on wound or apply a treated bandage.
5. Finish bandaging up the wound.

Alternatively there are tourniquets. Basic training field medic training is very little.

Actually that is not completely true. Most Soldiers leave Basic Training understanding how to evaluate a casualty, treat a wound to an extremity, a sucking chest wound, an abdomenal wound and apply a tourniquet. Many soldiers will also go through the Combat Lifesaver Course. It is supposed to be 40 hours but many times with long days it is compressed into a long weekend. At least one member of each fire team or vehicle will receive CLS training before deploying. Usually it is more than half of the unit, at least for the Virginia Guard units. One of the optional components of the Course is start a Saline lock (start an IV).
As far as the open and pour anti-clot, I would much rather have the combat gauze, Celox gauze or Chito Gauze packed in the wound and a dressing applied over it. The Hemostatic products in use now don't generate near the heat as in the past (even just a few years ago) and some don't generate any. http://www.chinookmed.com/cgi-bin/categ ... emostatics
Personally I think for civilian first aid training, contacting a local Rescue Squad or the American Red Cross to find out where and when a First Responder course is available would be the best first step.

grumpyMSG wrote:Actually that is not completely true. Most Soldiers leave Basic Training understanding how to evaluate a casualty, treat a wound to an extremity, a sucking chest wound, an abdomenal wound and apply a tourniquet. Many soldiers will also go through the Combat Lifesaver Course. It is supposed to be 40 hours but many times with long days it is compressed into a long weekend. At least one member of each fire team or vehicle will receive CLS training before deploying.

I was a medic attached to a mechanized infantry unit. Trust me, if my life were in the hands of a combat lifesaver I'd die of terror before hypovolemic shock. Had one explain to me the IV works by "squeezing the bag until its empty".

The grunts only do it for their NCO points; that alone tells you how much they pay attention.

When I left basic at Ft Benning we didn't learn triage.

I keep a very basic first aid kit and a secondary "beyond first aid" kit in my zombie bag...secondary kit contains Celox granules, SAM splint, & Asherman chest seal, etc.. my main first aid kit has all the gauze, gloves, etc, so I don't go overboard buying the pre-packaged kits. Some of the stuff expires, so make sure you check your exp dates and replace that stuff in a timely manner, if necessary. The zombie bag is a little too heavy to take to the range, so the secondary kit pops out and goes with me.... From what I've heard, the Celox agent doesn't burn the flesh like QuickClot did... anyone have first hand experience with hemostatic agents that knows the difference?

Kreutz wrote:

grumpyMSG wrote:Actually that is not completely true. Most Soldiers leave Basic Training understanding how to evaluate a casualty, treat a wound to an extremity, a sucking chest wound, an abdomenal wound and apply a tourniquet. Many soldiers will also go through the Combat Lifesaver Course. It is supposed to be 40 hours but many times with long days it is compressed into a long weekend. At least one member of each fire team or vehicle will receive CLS training before deploying.

I was a medic attached to a mechanized infantry unit. Trust me, if my life were in the hands of a combat lifesaver I'd die of terror before hypovolemic shock. Had one explain to me the IV works by "squeezing the bag until its empty".

The grunts only do it for their NCO points; that alone tells you how much they pay attention.

When I left basic at Ft Benning we didn't learn triage.

I've never been through the military's course, but I have talked with several soldiers from recent training that that was my impression as well. 40hrs of "training" turns into 20hrs of actual training after overhead, which turns into 2hrs they actually were paying attention, which turns into 20mins of actual learning. Nothing against the troops as most "educational" classes, military or otherwise, that you must attend are like that.

CCFan wrote:I keep a very basic first aid kit and a secondary "beyond first aid" kit in my zombie bag...secondary kit contains Celox granules, SAM splint, & Asherman chest seal, etc.. my main first aid kit has all the gauze, gloves, etc, so I don't go overboard buying the pre-packaged kits. Some of the stuff expires, so make sure you check your exp dates and replace that stuff in a timely manner, if necessary. The zombie bag is a little too heavy to take to the range, so the secondary kit pops out and goes with me.... From what I've heard, the Celox agent doesn't burn the flesh like QuickClot did... anyone have first hand experience with hemostatic agents that knows the difference?

Almost all of the new versions of hemostatic products I've seen come out lately are labelled and advertisted as "no heat"

TheGearGuy wrote:

CCFan wrote:I keep a very basic first aid kit and a secondary "beyond first aid" kit in my zombie bag...secondary kit contains Celox granules, SAM splint, & Asherman chest seal, etc.. my main first aid kit has all the gauze, gloves, etc, so I don't go overboard buying the pre-packaged kits. Some of the stuff expires, so make sure you check your exp dates and replace that stuff in a timely manner, if necessary. The zombie bag is a little too heavy to take to the range, so the secondary kit pops out and goes with me.... From what I've heard, the Celox agent doesn't burn the flesh like QuickClot did... anyone have first hand experience with hemostatic agents that knows the difference?

Almost all of the new versions of hemostatic products I've seen come out lately are labelled and advertisted as "no heat"

Do the quotes mean actually no heat (not exothermic) or just not enough heat to burn you?

The quotes are for literally what is written on the new QuikClot packaging.

I have been doing some Googling on how Colex compares to Quickclot. I haven't seen anyone talking about any major differences. Celox Gauge is $35 but Quickclot gauze is $50. I think I would go with the Celox.

Jakeiscrazy wrote:I have been doing some Googling on how Colex compares to Quickclot. I haven't seen anyone talking about any major differences. Celox Gauge is $35 but Quickclot gauze is $50. I think I would go with the Celox.

The only thing that would worry me about Celox is the "proprietary marine bio-polymer", is it the same as in a Chitosan dressing? which is crustacean based and would worry me a little about people being allergic to Shrimp/ Lobster. I think the actual allergy is to Iodine, I am sure Kreutz will come in and elaborate on it with far more knowledge and experience than I have.

gunderwood wrote:Do the quotes mean actually no heat (not exothermic) or just not enough heat to burn you?

One of the products I looked at said it got up to 105 degrees, basically equal to a fever, probably a whole lot cooler than the setting plaster on a cast. Other products that aren't marine based (usually mentions Oleo- something or other) is based on something usually referred to as "Fuller Earth" a very dry clay, it is actually a cousin to Kitty Litter.

gunderwood wrote:I've never been through the military's course, but I have talked with several soldiers from recent training that that was my impression as well. 40hrs of "training" turns into 20hrs of actual training after overhead, which turns into 2hrs they actually were paying attention, which turns into 20mins of actual learning. Nothing against the troops as most "educational" classes, military or otherwise, that you must attend are like that.

Not to have too much faith, I can't say that most of the folks who go through CLS would be the most capable at starting an IV, that is why it is considered an optional portion of the course. It is definitely a perishable skill that requires practice on a routine basis. On the other hand, looking at the number of casualties that have returned from Iraq or Afghanistan having had a traumatic injury, shows somebody is learning something, somewhere along the way. One of the first things taught to Soldiers in CLS is they are there to fight fight first. A medic on the other hand is there to care for the wounded. You finish the fire-fight before you attempt to help somebody. Kind of like First Responder training's "your safety is more important than the casualty", it's hard to help someone when you yourself become a victim.

You guys talking about IV skills, is the Sternal IV catching on for trauma victims? I first heard about this a couple of years ago, but then it slipped off my radar. It would seem like it would be pretty fool proof.

http://www.allmed.net/catalog/item/1,1024,1234,1239
http://www.medicalsci.com/files/harcke_ ... 110810.pdf

grumpyMSG wrote: The only thing that would worry me about Celox is the "proprietary marine bio-polymer", is it the same as in a Chitosan dressing? which is crustacean based and would worry me a little about people being allergic to Shrimp/ Lobster. I think the actual allergy is to Iodine, I am sure Kreutz will come in and elaborate on it with far more knowledge and experience than I have.

My tour was up in January 2002 and to my knowledge these dressings didn't come into use really until after that. I never received any training in them or used them. IIRC they were brand new in 2001 or so a I vaguely recall an Army Times piece about the then new technology.

The only thing that would worry me about Celox is the "proprietary marine bio-polymer", is it the same as in a Chitosan dressing? which is crustacean based and would worry me a little about people being allergic to Shrimp/ Lobster. I think the actual allergy is to Iodine, I am sure Kreutz will come in and elaborate on it with far more knowledge and experience than I have

Apparently it isn't an issue and has been tested. http://www.celoxmedical.com/tech_chitosan.htm