Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by Chasbo00 »

Kreutz wrote: I am aware I can open carry here; I don't want to. I loathe attracting attention as a matter of course, but when firearms are involved? No way.
Actually I'm no fan of open carry. I think it is, on the whole, detrimental to expanding gun rights. This is especially so when open carry is done in locations and at venues where it's likely to cause public concern.

Just because one has the right to dress like Bozo the Clown and go out in public, does not mean it's a good idea. Can does not equal should.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by speezack »

wylde007, I think you have a tremendous amount of pent up hostility in your posts. I believe this is just a forum for general discussion. I posted my opinion and my activities that I felt relevant. They were not intended to do anything but provide fodder for discussion. It appears your line is only to inflame and I am not interested in debating with someone that obviously simply wants to 'rant'.

Lighten up wylde007, it's only a forum. You are wrapped entirely too tight and that's about all I have to say to you. Now you may jump back with whatever dribble you want to spout. Have a great day and try not to get too excited. :roll:
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by speezack »

Generally I would say you are an otherwise law-abiding citizen. How does he know (or need to know) that you are a bondsman? What does that have to do with anything?
Actually the only reason that came up was because my jacket had a logo over the pocket, so I guess he noticed that. As for the bulge, well, I think ordinarily it doesn't show but I guess it did that time.... and as an afterthought... maybe he just has an attitude toward bondsmen... some LE have that condition.
Do you consider yourself to be a "special" citizen then? Are your rights more important, more necessary or more defensible than mine?
and no, I do not feel special, just providing facts for the post... not sure why you ask that?? Anyway, this should about do it on this thread, for me.
Actually I'm no fan of open carry. I think it is, on the whole, detrimental to expanding gun rights. This is especially so when open carry is done in locations and at venues where it's likely to cause public concern.
I certainly agree with that. I think the 'ordinary' citizen gets a bit antsy when viewing a plain clothes person with a gun on their side.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by speezack »

I lied, I said I wasn't going further with this, however, just a quicky here....
...he told me that I needed BOTH permits to carry...
So he lied to you. Is that my fault?
Your fault, uh, no.... why would it be your fault??? but... well, I just spoke to the local State Police and yesterday a Circuit court clerk and both told me that I needed to carry both... so what do I know... you may certainly be correct but it seems no one knows for sure............ I guess I will err on the side of prudence.

... and now, I will sit down and be quiet. :wave:
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by wylde007 »

I just don't understand the irrational fear of and/or misrepresentation of OPEN carry as "bad". To compare OPEN carry to dressing like a clown, simply because one can, is a poor construction and relegates by proxy open carriers to another class of citizens.

News flash: open carry is 100% lawful. It does not require a special permission slip from the government to exercise and, in its current form, is the MOST functional and practical tool for representing lawful firearms carry.

If you are concealing (and doing it properly) how can you be an advocate for carry? No one would know.

As for the hostility? There is none. As a bondsman you may be required to carry a certain other permit as an ancillary requirement of your job, but I am willing to bet the law says otherwise. You keep citing things people have told you without any cite to law. That does not represent fact, rather hearsay.

Now, if one of your judge or clerk friends would like to provide a cite to law, I would be more than happy to entertain it. Without it, all I have is my own research, and that tells me, via 18.2-308, that there is no legal requisite to carry two permits.

And when you use the term "fodder" you do know that is exactly what they became right? You've heard the term "cannon fodder"? Same applies.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by Chasbo00 »

wylde007 wrote:I just don't understand the irrational fear of and/or misrepresentation of OPEN carry as "bad". To compare OPEN carry to dressing like a clown, simply because one can, is a poor construction and relegates by proxy open carriers to another class of citizens.
Well, I may have thrown that Bozo pass (analogy) a little long. My point was intended to be that just because someone can do something, does not mean that it's necessarily something that should be done. Open carry in some locations or venues can result in restricting our carry options. For example here is a typical scenario... An open carrier goes to a restaurant, his visit and meal are uneventful -- at least to him. So much so, that he then goes home and posts on OCDO that he had a great meal and no issues OCing. Yet, unbeknown to him, two other customers at this restaurant complain to the restaurant's management about the man eating with the big gun sitting next to them and their children. The next day there is a NO GUNs sign on the restaurant and yet another place on the off limits list for all of us who legally carry. This general type scenario is not limited to restaurants either.
wylde007 wrote:News flash: open carry is 100% lawful.
So is dressing like Bozo the Clown. :roll:
wylde007 wrote:It does not require a special permission slip from the government to exercise and, in its current form, is the MOST functional and practical tool for representing lawful firearms carry.
Why do you think you need to "represent" lawful firearms carry? As to the special permission slip (CHP permit), I don't like it either. I view it as just another unwarranted tax. I would like for VA to go the way of Alaska, Arizona and Vermont, plus it would save me $10 per year.
wylde007 wrote:If you are concealing (and doing it properly) how can you be an advocate for carry? No one would know.
Apparently you and I are a full 180 out here. The open vs. concealed carry issue has been around for more than a little while. There are of course valid arguments for both and we could argue for a long time. But, I think we both would like to see the same outcome -- A VA that does not require a permit for carry either open or concealed. Where we differ is how to get there. I think, in general, that open carry hurts arriving at this outcome more than it helps.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by wylde007 »

Zero permits.

On that we agree.

I believe that open carry helps to anesthetize the public at large to the "act" of carrying a firearm. The more they see it and recognize that the presence of a firearm does not ultimately translate into a violent outburst or murderous rampage, the better for all involved - concealed and open-carry advocates.

For myself and many others (not all, but many) we would much rather exercise our right out in the open so that we may discover who our friends and allies truly are.

By concealing you may carry into a restaurant which does not like guns but has not implemented a policy against them. As an open carrier I see it as forcing them to decide between having a successful business venture in a time of economic uncertainty or turning away potential revenue.

I do not want to support businesses which do not support freedom.

On the other side of that coin, I support your desire and disposition towards conceal carry because that, too, is your "right" in my eyes, despite the opinion of the GA to the contrary. All too often I see vociferous supporters of conceal carry over open carry because they do not want guns out in plain view, citing unsubstantiated fears that a BG will target them first if they know they are carrying.

BGs are generally a cowardly lot.

My point is (if you're still reading after all that) that I support the rights of citizens to carry however they want. A conceal carrier does not have to worry, generally about being asked to leave a restaurant/store/venue because they do not expose themselves to scrutiny. It is much easier to perform an act when you are mostly sure that no one will harass, accost or otherwise inconvenience you. There is no risk and, essentially, no consequence.

If an open carrier "ruins" it for you, was the business really worth patronizing in the first place? I do not think so, but it seems (emphasis: seems) that you would fault the open carrier for closing a door when, in fact, he has exposed a charlatan.

In more than one instance I know of personally (and have been involved) a business put up "gunbuster" signs. When approached rationally and reasonably they recognized the fundamental fallacy in their logic and recanted.

Sometimes it doesn't work. Then we go somewhere else. Lots of places love to have us.

Regardless, it seems to me that a great many proponents of conceal-carry would not step to the plate if open carry was threatened legislatively, whereas open carriers seem to be more broad-spectrum liberty-minded, choosing to exercise their rights without a permission slip - and would support CONSTITUTIONAL carry as the proper solution, allowing the citizen to choose and not having one type of carry enjoy certain "special" status over another, the dreaded "Perks 4 Permits".

Regards. :friends:
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by gfost1 »

Howdy, Y'all,

Sorry to contribute to derailing the topic, but I got $0.02 burning a hole in my pocket regarding open vs concealed:

(insert pause for dramatic effect)

The whole reason that this argument exists is precisely because the sheeple (on topic, yes?) are not accustomed to seeing good guys w/guns.

The only way I can only think of to remedy that situation is by exposure. The biggest downside is to those pioneering souls who brave the arrows. The cause itself cannot be set back as long as our brothers in arms behave responsibly.

Don't carry open if you're not comfortable, but trust your brothers who do. Unite in the spirit.

Regards,

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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by Chasbo00 »

I have to wonder if there were no permit required for concealed carry, just how many who open carry everywhere today would still do so. It seems to me that the most ardent open carriers may be more anti-permit (especially the personal registration involved in getting one) than they are pro open carry.

Perhaps the open vs. concealed carry issue is really more about permits, registration and fees -- just a thought.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by wylde007 »

Chasbo00 wrote:It seems to me that the most ardent open carriers may be more anti-permit (especially the personal registration involved in getting one) than they are pro open carry.
Bingo, mate.

A great portion of it is EXACTLY the permit portion.

I do believe that if VA went full "Constitutional" carry then you would probably experience a stagnation of OC, rather than the increase (however modest) it has seen in the past five or six years.

As for how many more people would conceal carry - well, if they do it right nobody would ever know.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by GS78 »

SgtBill wrote:I am sorry that I posted this thread. It seems that the people here do not approve of it in anyway and it just started a bunch of needless crap. If y'all want I will get rid of it.
Bill
No bill, you hold the line. You are right and the author of the piece is absolutely true in his assessment. It is a worthy post and an asset to this site. Those who misrepresent it for their petty reasons are merely showing their ignorance of reality.

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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by gfost1 »

Chasbo00 wrote:I have to wonder if there were no permit required for concealed carry, just how many who open carry everywhere today would still do so. It seems to me that the most ardent open carriers may be more anti-permit (especially the personal registration involved in getting one) than they are pro open carry.

Perhaps the open vs. concealed carry issue is really more about permits, registration and fees -- just a thought.
Howdy, Charlie,

You're not suggesting that the ardent OC proponents are so because they can't get permits, are you?

I can't speak for other permit holders on this forum, (besides, they speak for themselves just fine) but I am a permit holder for over two decades and an OC advocate. My CHP is old enough to have a CHP of its own. (as an aside, back in those days, they were called Concealed Weapon Permits, and if memory serves, the law at the time made no distinction as to the type. It wasn't until the "Shall Issue" reforms began in the early 1990's that the scope was narrowed to Handguns)

There are valid arguments regarding the efficacy of OC vs CC in a variety of (mostly tactical) situations. Most arguments against OC based solely on political or societal concerns don't hold water, though, because they tend to be emotional rather than factual. Someone may dream up, or may have even witnessed a scenario where OC is perceived to have caused a negative impact on "The Cause". In the final analysis though, if the OC was lawful and responsible then why blame OC instead of blaming the emotional reaction to the open carry.

Politics and public attitudes are fleeting. They can be directed by those willing to put in the effort for the long term.

Regards,

George

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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by wylde007 »

gfost1 wrote:You're not suggesting that the ardent OC proponents are so because they can't get permits, are you?
Well, not in Virginia he wouldn't.

In VA all you have to do is apply. As long as you are not legally precluded from otherwise possessing/carrying a firearm, the clerk MUST ISSUE a permit.

He is suggesting exactly what I had hoped - that many ardent OC proponents are so because they do not want to ask their government permission to exercise a sovereign right AND they do not like having their name on one more "list".
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by Chasbo00 »

Hi George. I'm not necessarily anti-OC given an appropriate location or venue. I OC occasionally myself when I think it's appropriate; but, I don't demonstration carry. I think you turn off and alienate more people than you acclimate towards guns when you demonstration carry. There is no viable feedback means to let you know when this is occurring as those who are put off or upset by an OCer are not likely to complain, especially to someone openly wearing a gun.

With respect to my comments about ardent OCers... I think they resent having to get permission from government to exercise a right. I think they are especially resentful of having to personally register themselves and pay a fee to obtain a permit. Many so much so that they will not get a CHP. Those without a CHP then get even more bent out of shape when the CHP holders get additional privileges beyond just concealed carry. CHP holders being exempt from the one-gun-month law is an example of this. If you choose not to get a CHP, then open carry is what you do everywhere and all the time.

There is one group I do support full blown open carry for though. Those 18 to 20 year olds don't have any other legal choice.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by zephyp »

Kreutz wrote: I am aware I can open carry here; I don't want to. I loathe attracting attention as a matter of course, but when firearms are involved? No way.
Indeed. Too many leftists and antis up here. Open carrying in most areas of NOVA is nothing more than an invitation for trouble. Granted that if you are acting IAW law you will be ok that matters not to me. Why should I invite being repeatedly being stopped by police, having police called for MWG, or being hauled in...no thanks...and besides I have no reason to make a statement about my rights. This is after all still America....
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by speezack »

GS78 wrote:
SgtBill wrote:I am sorry that I posted this thread. It seems that the people here do not approve of it in anyway and it just started a bunch of needless crap. If y'all want I will get rid of it.
Bill
No bill, you hold the line. You are right and the author of the piece is absolutely true in his assessment. It is a worthy post and an asset to this site. Those who misrepresent it for their petty reasons are merely showing their ignorance of reality.

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Excellent response and Bill, hold the line, Marine!
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by SgtBill »

Will Do, OOOOH Ra,
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by OleMan »

SgtBill wrote:Will Do, OOOOH Ra,
Sermper Fi!
Bill :packin:
Sgt Bill,

I'm late but my response is to keep the post up. My take was that the author did not say that the protectors ('sheepdogs') could only be LE and Military. Rather, he was telling us to NOT be sheep.

I have never been LE or Military, but have lots of both in my family history (only one KIA that I know of) going back to the Revolutionary war. That history is where I learned to be a protector and I have directly used firearms three times to defend myself or family. My two nationally recognized LE relatives and multiple local officers have reassured and supported me in my right to defend myself and my home - only shooting was one warning shot fired by me, disarmed three guys intending burglary (I had the high ground, field of fire, and firepower advantage), and helped result in them being convicted of many felony counts some months later. One other event convinced a drug-head to quit stomping his girlfriend - he didn't like looking down the barrel of that .270.

I'm best described as a small, lower-case 'sheepdog' , but I think the Col. was trying to tell us to be 'sheepdogs' , be aware and be smart, but be willing to protect. That is our responsibility as citizens - IMHO.

Thanks for your service to our country. My brother in-law (Corporal, USMC, 1959 to 1964) says I can say Semper Fi to Marines but that I have to say retired or former Marine - not ex-Marine.

Semper Fi

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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by gunderwood »

gfost1 wrote:The whole reason that this argument exists is precisely because the sheeple (on topic, yes?) are not accustomed to seeing good guys w/guns who aren't LE/Mil.
Fixed it a bit, but this is exactly the problem. The antis with their allies in the media have successfully branded gun owners and particularly those who carry (open or concealed). The American spirit has been perverted from accepting liberty and freedom to wanting the government to regulate and ban everything we don't care for. The only way to fix this is to lead by example, you can't argue with an irrational fear.


The only thing that bozo and OC have in common is there is not a law restricting those actions. The wisdom and desire to behave in either of those ways is left to the individual and should be IMHO. It is just opinion what you think of either of those actions and some opinions are $hit. While I think a person walking down the street dressed as a clown is funny and a bit odd, I've got no beef with that despite the fact I have no desire to behave like it either; no harm is being committed. For all I know someone lost a bet over last nights round of drinks. OCing is not for everyone just like CCing, but I see no reason to tarnish the character of those who do so just because their actions would not be yours.
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Re: Read it and learn, why I carry a weapon

Post by Yarddawg »

gunderwood wrote:
gfost1 wrote:The whole reason that this argument exists is precisely because the sheeple (on topic, yes?) are not accustomed to seeing good guys w/guns who aren't LE/Mil.
Fixed it a bit, but this is exactly the problem. The antis with their allies in the media have successfully branded gun owners and particularly those who carry (open or concealed). The American spirit has been perverted from accepting liberty and freedom to wanting the government to regulate and ban everything we don't care for. The only way to fix this is to lead by example, you can't argue with an irrational fear.


The only thing that bozo and OC have in common is there is not a law restricting those actions. The wisdom and desire to behave in either of those ways is left to the individual and should be IMHO. It is just opinion what you think of either of those actions and some opinions are $hit. While I think a person walking down the street dressed as a clown is funny and a bit odd, I've got no beef with that despite the fact I have no desire to behave like it either; no harm is being committed. For all I know someone lost a bet over last nights round of drinks. OCing is not for everyone just like CCing, but I see no reason to tarnish the character of those who do so just because their actions would not be yours.
+1

The people of this country these days have become entirely too dependent on the government to protect them. In actuality, LEO's are not required to come running to the call of a citizen asking for protection. It is incumbent on every able bodied citizen to provide their own defense. Not only against the "bad guys", but also against the government.

The founders of this great country recognized this, and wrote the second amendment for exactly this purpose!
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