Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

OgenRwot wrote:A lot has been said as to why it's not the greatest choice of a carry piece.

I have to agree with these guys. You want something ABSOLUTELY 100% reliable. Someone mentioned running two boxes of defense ammo through theirs and that's good enough. Not so. That's what, 40 rounds? What happens if number 41 is a problem? I wouldn't carry anything I haven't run hundreds of rounds through.

+1

They may have been 50 LE boxes, but the point is still valid. I've put 150 rounds of 380Auto through my Ruger LCP in one sitting. I don't shoot it often (pocket pistols aren't much fun...very utilitarian), but I wanted to break it in and make sure it was reliable. I'm nearing 500 rounds through it IIRC.

Yeah some people are on a budget and "need" a cheap gun. I understand what it's like to not have much money but we're talking about your life and the lives of your loved ones. They are worth more than 275 bucks. Hell you can find a used Glock for around 400. Don't eat out with the family at all this month and you've got yourself a VERY reliable pistol.

This is definitely a price segment that you can get a lot more for a little bit of money. If all you can afford is a highpoint, by all means get one. Something is better than nothing. However, don't forget the reason you are carrying; defense of your life and your families lives. If you are just being cheap, I'd advise you reconsider.

I carry a Glock 19 every single day. I'm 6'4" 170 pounds, if I turn sideways I disappear. I have never been made and I do not find it hard to conceal in an IWB holster at 3-4 o'clock, even in a t-shirt and shorts. If you really can't figure out how to carry a Glock, XD, M&P whatever, get a 442 or 642 or any other snub nose revolver and throw it in a pocket holster.

OC is an option too or at the very least you don't have to worry about a felony conviction if your gun accidentally becomes unconcealed. Got to love VA!

I have yet to come across a 380 auto model that hasn't had some kind of serious problems. I would not carry a gun that has a malfunction 1 out of 100 times let alone once every mag or two. I will not leave my life up to those chances. I've owned several Glocks and have never had a problem...ever. I have friends that have XDs, M&Ps, Berettas etc that have never had problems. Get something that is a proven winner. Your life may depend on it someday, that's why we choose to carry.

I've not had any problems with my Ruger LCP. I don't think Bill has had problems with his Walther PK380 either. I would suggest it isn't the caliber, but rather the market a lot of .380s go after...small and cheap. Small and cheap 9mms have lots of problems too. However, any given sample may work perfectly.

You are going to have to give up comfort to CCW. I hate when my pistol digs into my back or my hip but it's the "sacrifice" you make to stay safe. You may have to dress slightly different than you have been. It's not like you strap on a gun and you're good to go anyway. It's a lifestyle and if you don't change your lifestyle you shouldn't be carrying.

It is a lifestyle.

I've tried explaining this to people before. There is a gun culture and if you aren't part of it you won't get it. A 6 yr old children being trained on a .22lr or pellet gun sounds "extreme" to someone out side of the gun culture...many of us in the culture are questioning why wait until they are 6? There are many other examples including CC/OC. I don't strap a gun on to go out per se, rather, I wear one like I wear my watch (I usually wear both around the house too). I doubt a day goes by in which I don't handle at least one gun. It may be as simple as verifying my home defense guns are still good to go or just putting on a carry piece, but I do that every day.

People get confused because they mix gun owners up with the gun culture (this is also how the antis get their "I'm a gun owner and I don't mind having TSA probe me before every purchase..." ads). I also own a motorcycle, but I would not say I am part of the motorcycle culture. I ride it, I enjoy it, but not every day. It isn't an integral part of my life. Also, if I had to sell it I wouldn't feel ashamed.

Owning a gun doesn't make you part of the gun culture anymore than owning a Harley makes you a Hells Angel.

gunderwood wrote: It is a lifestyle.

I've tried explaining this to people before. There is a gun culture and if you aren't part of it you won't get it. A 6 yr old children being trained on a .22lr or pellet gun sounds "extreme" to someone out side of the gun culture...many of us in the culture are questioning why wait until they are 6? There are many other examples including CC/OC. I don't strap a gun on to go out per se, rather, I wear one like I wear my watch (I usually wear both around the house too). I doubt a day goes by in which I don't handle at least one gun. It may be as simple as verifying my home defense guns are still good to go or just putting on a carry piece, but I do that every day.

People get confused because they mix gun owners up with the gun culture (this is also how the antis get their "I'm a gun owner and I don't mind having TSA probe me before every purchase..." ads). I also own a motorcycle, but I would not say I am part of the motorcycle culture. I ride it, I enjoy it, but not every day. It isn't an integral part of my life. Also, if I had to sell it I wouldn't feel ashamed.

Owning a gun doesn't make you part of the gun culture anymore than owning a Harley makes you a Hells Angel.

I'm going to partially disagree with you. There are those of us out there who aren't part of the gun culture who still get your rights and decisions. I may not teach my 6 YO to shoot, and I don't CC often - it's very inconvenient in NOVA, esp. if you have an anti-gun employer - but I certainly respect your right to do so, without so much as a suspiciously arched eyebrow.

FatAndy wrote:

gunderwood wrote: It is a lifestyle.

I've tried explaining this to people before. There is a gun culture and if you aren't part of it you won't get it. A 6 yr old children being trained on a .22lr or pellet gun sounds "extreme" to someone out side of the gun culture...many of us in the culture are questioning why wait until they are 6? There are many other examples including CC/OC. I don't strap a gun on to go out per se, rather, I wear one like I wear my watch (I usually wear both around the house too). I doubt a day goes by in which I don't handle at least one gun. It may be as simple as verifying my home defense guns are still good to go or just putting on a carry piece, but I do that every day.

People get confused because they mix gun owners up with the gun culture (this is also how the antis get their "I'm a gun owner and I don't mind having TSA probe me before every purchase..." ads). I also own a motorcycle, but I would not say I am part of the motorcycle culture. I ride it, I enjoy it, but not every day. It isn't an integral part of my life. Also, if I had to sell it I wouldn't feel ashamed.

Owning a gun doesn't make you part of the gun culture anymore than owning a Harley makes you a Hells Angel.

I'm going to partially disagree with you. There are those of us out there who aren't part of the gun culture who still get your rights and decisions. I may not teach my 6 YO to shoot, and I don't CC often - it's very inconvenient in NOVA, esp. if you have an anti-gun employer - but I certainly respect your right to do so, without so much as a suspiciously arched eyebrow.

Respect is not culture. Also, there is nothing wrong with not being part of a particular culture. E.g. I own, enjoy and understand the rational and emotion of a motorcycle, but it is not an integral part of my life like some riders I know. Or put a different way, being part of the culinary culture is far more than owning nice knives or watching cooking shows or even liking cooking.

From wikipedia:

Culture (from the Latin cultura stemming from colere, meaning "to cultivate")[1] is a term that has various meanings. For example, in 1952, Alfred Kroeber and Clyde Kluckhohn compiled a list of 164 definitions of "culture" in Culture: A Critical Review of Concepts and Definitions.[2] However, the word "culture" is most commonly used in three basic senses:

* Excellence of taste in the fine arts and humanities, also known as high culture

* An integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for symbolic thought and social learning

* The set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution, organization or group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

The first is not relevant, the second and third are. Of course it isn't totally black and white. When it becomes a integral part of your life, that is culture...it defines part of you.

I live in NOVA too and I can't remember the last time I went anywhere and wasn't carrying with the single exception of work (my employer requires that I don't and some locations forbid it, even in cars). Heck, I slap on a pocket pistol to work on my car in my own driveway. It isn't about any particular thing that defines you or anyone as part of a culture, it is a mindset. E.g. the American culture use to love liberty, now we slaughter liberty at the alter of security and "safety."

IMHO (but purely for example sake):

The gun culture doesn't think about training their children at 6 or younger. Instead the example set by the adults and older children make the younger children want to learn. They see mommy and daddy caring guns all the time, the see hunting, they see cleaning and maintenance, they see dry fire practice, they see home defense guns. The children learn because they see guns used properly everyday.

The gun culture doesn't think about when to carry or not to carry. It is such an integrated aspect of life that I feel naked when I can't carry (at work), just as I would if forget my watch or glasses or pocket knife. I've got a choice of three loaded carry guns sitting on my dresser depending on my needs and mood...right next to my wallet, keys, watch and pocket knife.

Defining culture in black and white terms is hard, but you know it when you see it. E.g. there are lots of people in this country who claim to be Christians, but you'd never know it unless they told you. Is that really the Christian culture? I don't think so. Defining it is hard and there are no set rules, but again when you find a person or family for whom Christianity is a way of life, a culture if you will, you know it and it's not mistakable. Keeping with this religious example, everyone is welcome at a church, but certainly not everyone who goes to church is a Christian.

There is nothing wrong with liking something a lot and it not being a way of life. My motorcycle is like that for me. I enjoy it and I own a fairly expensive bike (BMW), but doesn't really define me. No one thinks of gunderwood the motorcycle rider as a defining characteristic, despite the fact that I understand the rational behind motorcycles and agree with it. Gunderwood the gun owner who owns lots of guns and some worth more than his cars? Gunderwood who is already planning to buy youth model .22s for his nieces and nephew, but didn't this year because they are "only" 1 and 2 respectively? (2011 or 2012 is almost guaranteed) Absolutely.

I estimated what I've spent on firearms in the last decade and it was far more than I've spent on automobiles (two new cars, one used and a new motorcycle) during that same decade.

OgenRwot wrote:I have yet to come across a 380 auto model that hasn't had some kind of serious problems.

I guess you dont get out much or maybe you've only played with High Points and Glocks. Several very dependable .380s out there. I carry a Bersa frequently in warmer weather. I will soon carry a Glock 26 once its been range tested and a little broken in -- only because my wife gave it to me for Christmas. Glock = something I would never buy for myself. And not because I think it unreliable either. I also own and carry Beretta (9 and .25), Colt (.45), Tauras (.45), and Desert Eagle (.45)...

gunderwood wrote: I live in NOVA too and I can't remember the last time I went anywhere and wasn't carrying with the single exception of work (my employer requires that I don't and some locations forbid it, even in cars).

I think this is the crux of my inability to CC (often). When I am out of the home, I would estimate that 75% of that time is to be at work, or to commute to and from work. Having an employer that forbids firearms, even in personal vehicles, and having no alternative other than to park on company property, I am immediately disqualified from carrying 75% of the time I am away from home, despite the fact that work is where I am most likely to face a mass murderer situation. I doubt the VA legislature will provide relief on this issue any time soon.

Another time when I am more likely to need a firearm is when I venture into DC or MD. Once again, CC is disqualified.

Furthermore, my wife has expressed her discomfort with me CC'ing when going about on family errands. This is probably the only situation where I can affect change, but, as my wife always points out, she was here before the guns.

So, basically, I am limited to when I am out running errands by myself. In most cases, this involves me going to the range, where I am required to unload my firearm in my vehicle prior to entering the premises.

With all of these legal and personal barriers, even the most avowed CC advocates would have to admit that it gets old, fast. For me, it was enough to discourage the process altogether, though I will always maintain a CHP for bureaucratic expediency.

gunderwood wrote: E.g. the American culture use to love liberty, now we slaughter liberty at the alter of security and "safety."

Definitely a big ! I would say the primary reason why I am a gun owner, but perhaps not a member of the gun culture, is my political beliefs. Even to the most casual of gun owners, purchasing a weapon is most definitely an act of defiance against the political establishment. Anyone should realize this the first time they see a 4473 form.

ProShooter wrote:I did a 50 round field test with the 9mm Keltec and found it to be a filthy little piece of trash that couldnt hit the target at 3 yards.

you need some practice, i will put all 12 rounds in your fore head at 7 yds. this is a $279.00 gun it was made to carry more than to be used as a target gun. it shoots as good as my glocks , colts, browning hp.h&k, kimber, rugger.the trigger is long and stiff, i put a trigger shoe on mine. it made a big diff. the more you shoot it the easier it is to have control. btw this is a p11, with a 12 rd. mag and a pinkie ext. plus it has a life time wnty, to who ever ownes it, free parts for life.

bophi wrote:

ProShooter wrote:I did a 50 round field test with the 9mm Keltec and found it to be a filthy little piece of trash that couldnt hit the target at 3 yards.

you need some practice, i will put all 12 rounds in your fore head at 7 yds. this is a $279.00 gun it was made to carry more than to be used as a target gun. it shoots as good as my glocks , colts, browning hp.h&k, kimber, rugger.the trigger is long and stiff, i put a trigger shoe on mine. it made a big diff. the more you shoot it the easier it is to have control. btw this is a p11, with a 12 rd. mag and a pinkie ext. plus it has a life time wnty, to who ever ownes it, free parts for life.

I would word that differently. PS is not a noobie.

gunderwood wrote:

bophi wrote:

ProShooter wrote:I did a 50 round field test with the 9mm Keltec and found it to be a filthy little piece of trash that couldnt hit the target at 3 yards.

you need some practice, i will put all 12 rounds in your fore head at 7 yds. this is a $279.00 gun it was made to carry more than to be used as a target gun. it shoots as good as my glocks , colts, browning hp.h&k, kimber, rugger.the trigger is long and stiff, i put a trigger shoe on mine. it made a big diff. the more you shoot it the easier it is to have control. btw this is a p11, with a 12 rd. mag and a pinkie ext. plus it has a life time wnty, to who ever ownes it, free parts for life.

I would word that differently. PS is not a noobie.

ProShooter isn't, but bophi is!!