.45 for C/C?

[gunderwood]

Here is some of their test data to make a point...

Limiting it to the 230gr rounds which we seem to somewhat agree are the best .45ACP rounds.
Para LDA PDA 3" barrel 812 811
Bond Texas Defender 3" barrel 814 817

These are their "real" guns testing data. It would seem reasonable to say that a 3" barrel .45 yields 811-817fps. However, look at their test gun data.
6" 874 897
5" 843 895
4" 814 865
3" 758 787
2" 709 754

Approx. 55-60fps or 25-30fps lower. This suggests they didn't control for some variable somewhere. Temp of the ammo or barrel, ammo lots or age or storage condition, etc. I appreciate that this data exists at all, but you must understand what the data represents. Here is why this *may* be a problem.

It varies by manufacturer, but HP are designed to expand at very particular velocities. The range I have heard (can't verify though) is approx. 200fps. Shoot it outside of this range and the bullets probability of performing well goes down. Too fast and it might fragment, too slow and it won't expand. Depending on construction it also might not penetrate. Antecedent evidence, but .357SIG averages about 200fps more than 9mm and all manufacturers tell you not to use 9mm bullets in .357SIG and they all redesigned their bullets for it. If the velocity range was much larger than 200fps, there would be no need to redesign bullets for .357SIG.

Let's assume that they designed their ammo to be within the velocity range in a 5" barrel. This is a decent assumption because: 1. they test their normal ammo in 5" barrels (most) and 2. short barrel ammo is often tested at 4". Most 230gr .45ACP ammo is approx. 900fps in a 5" gun. Some guns will shoot it faster, some slower. Some targets will be inches and others yards. Thus, designing a bullet that has a desired impact velocity of 725-925fps or 750-950fps would be ideal. You provide a small margin on the top end and much more on the low end (good idea, since the bullet slows with distance). I'll give you the benefit and choose, 725-925fps. Thus, if I shot those out of a shorter barrel I would get (based on the link above) a MV between 758fps and 787fps. Throw in chrono errors, lower velocities when it is cold, gun variances, various target ranges, etc. and you don't have much (if any) room for error. Note, that this doesn't mean the round won't perform well, just that it is operating outside of its design parameters and the probability of performing well is much lower. Two ways to fix this:

1. Shoot +P ammo. Good, but only if they don't redesign the bullet to be stronger (I.e. raise the design impact velocities to 825-1025fps). If I now shoot that +P ammo in a 5" barrel it will be going faster than my design parameters and probably won't perform well either. The +P ammo I have seen tested, looks to be redesigned and if so, wouldn't solve the short barrel problem. Perhaps things have changed.

2. Create special short barrel ammo. They didn't test any 230gr .45ACP short barrel.

The point is this. Choose your ammo based on what gun you shoot. Shooting +P in a short barrel to get the velocities up to a 5" only matters if that +P bullet was designed to impact at those velocities.

Edit: It is interesting to note that many of the performance issues observed with 9mm are now chalked up to this exact problem. The standard 9mm bullet was 124gr; they just scaled the bullet up to 147gr and down too. Various police departments, when adapting the "wonder nines," went fast and light or heavy and slow. Interestingly, those that stayed with the standard 124gr (+P or otherwise) often still use it today. Everyone else was complaining of poor performance.

[WRW]

A person isn't as hard to put down as an animal so lets say you shoot me with a .45 with a 3" barrel and then a 5" barrel at a normal gunfight range of about 7 feet, I'll be willing to bet that the termial performance of each would be about the same and if the shot placement was right I'd be dead. I have a saying about hunting... A gut shot deer is a gut shot deer whether it's shot with a .243 or a .458 winchester

Agreed, but if you all would like to try some different makers I'm willing to kick in a bit. Just let me know.

I read around on the ballistics by the inch site today and saw where it had gotten the FBI's attention. It's not scientific, by any means, but it is somewhat of an indicater of what to expect.

[gunderwood]

A person isn't as hard to put down as an animal so lets say you shoot me with a .45 with a 3" barrel and then a 5" barrel at a normal gunfight range of about 7 feet, I'll be willing to bet that the termial performance of each would be about the same and if the shot placement was right I'd be dead. I have a saying about hunting... A gut shot deer is a gut shot deer whether it's shot with a .243 or a .458 winchester

You obviously haven't seen a 20mm HE gut shot deer. (neither have I, but I imagine it would be awesome...if the fuse was sensitive enough)

If you read back, I already stated this in different words. Practice matters most (implying you have to hit and hit where it matters). Given that, we have these arguments because even with good shot placement come calibers/bullet designs perform better. A vital shot deer with an expensive hunting bullet, assuming the same gun/caliber, is better than a FMJ on average. A vital shot deer, assuming the same bullet, is more likely to die quickly with a 30-06 than a .22lr (being extreme to make the point). Any particular deer/gun/caliber/bullet may or may not work well for any particular instance, but after testing many of them certain things work better than others on average.

For self defence, stopping the threat is all that matters. Caliber A and B may both kill (if that is what is needed), but if it takes longer with B than A or is more consistent with A than B, A is the "better" caliber based on this metric alone. You need to consider other things besides just this metric though. The police departments which were complaining of 9mm performance wasn't so much about the rounds ability to kill, but rather its ability to incapacitate quickly. Officers where getting good hits (lethal), but the bad guy would attack them, take their gun, shoot them and then die 50 yards away. There was one incident I studied where a bad guy was shot with a 12ga slug in the chest and he still did this. Granted he was on drugs.

Anyone here CC FMJ vice HP? No? Why not?

[Palladin]

"Anyone here CC FMJ vice HP? No? Why not?"

I stagger stack FMJs w/ HPs In my XD... to me this seems the best of both worlds.

Am I being foolish?

[gunderwood]

"Anyone here CC FMJ vice HP? No? Why not?"

I stagger stack FMJs w/ HPs In my XD... to me this seems the best of both worlds.

Am I being foolish?

It really is your call what you carry, but I am curious why you stagger FMJ?

The larger wound cavity of HP helps with quickly incapacitation and with less than perfect shots (which is actually most of them under stressful conditions). Also, it lessens the risk to bystanders from over penetration. Bonded HPs will penetrate glass/metal and still expand. Don't understand why you would stagger them unless that is all you had. Curious what your rational is.

[zephyp]

A person isn't as hard to put down as an animal so lets say you shoot me with a .45 with a 3" barrel and then a 5" barrel at a normal gunfight range of about 7 feet, I'll be willing to bet that the termial performance of each would be about the same and if the shot placement was right I'd be dead. I have a saying about hunting... A gut shot deer is a gut shot deer whether it's shot with a .243 or a .458 winchester

[SgtBill]

No one reacts the same when being shot. Some people will drop to the ground with a leg or arm wound and some people with a chest wound will run for block's. Some people will just drop and die right on the spot no matter where they are hit. No one ammunition is perfect no matter what the weapon type is when it comes to human beings. Shot placement and the person's mind set about being shot have more to do with it then the configuration of the projectile. The perfect test media has 2 arm's 2 leg's a head and a chest too shoot at and will bleed when hit, but the law of the land won't let you do this and get away with it.There are just too many variables to be able to come up with the perfect projectile for every situation. No one can tell me that the chance of surviving a dead center hit between the eye's with a .380 Gold Dot Hollow Point that travel's at about 1,000 F.P.S. is going to be more or less then a hit by a .45 Gold Dot Hollow Point that travel's at 950 F.P.S. from any length barrel weapon. Hell a .22 cal. Hollow Point round at 1200 or 1,300 F.P.S. to the center of the forehead will kill someone just as quick,. Ask the Israel Moosad about the effectivness of a .22 cal. round in 36 grain solid lead.

Rant over, good morning all
Bill

[firstcavapache64]

As far as staggering FMJ and HP, a good friend of mine who was a sworn officer in Louisa County, VA in the 90's was told to do just that by his supervisor at the time. The logic he told me was sometimes you needed better penetration, ie car door, wall or other solid substance. I used to do this with my 9mm because he had told me about it. I now carry Speer Gold Dots exclusively because I worry about over penetration. This has been a great thread, I am amazed at the depth of info shown by the posters. I agree with both the ballistic importance and the hitting your target info. You have to train and be 100% able to put hits on target under stress or else the best bullet will just make a hole in the ground. I have never had to shoot anyone, but the one time I drew my pistol to protect myself the adrenaline dump immediately after was so severe I could hardly stand up. My hands were shaking severely, my breath was hard to catch and my mind was racing for the rest of the day with what if's. I am trying to improve my accuracy so that in the middle of a firefight my shots will be as good as they can be. Thanks to all for such a great discussion.

[gunderwood]

As far as staggering FMJ and HP, a good friend of mine who was a sworn officer in Louisa County, VA in the 90's was told to do just that by his supervisor at the time. The logic he told me was sometimes you needed better penetration, ie car door, wall or other solid substance. I used to do this with my 9mm because he had told me about it. I now carry Speer Gold Dots exclusively because I worry about over penetration. This has been a great thread, I am amazed at the depth of info shown by the posters. I agree with both the ballistic importance and the hitting your target info. You have to train and be 100% able to put hits on target under stress or else the best bullet will just make a hole in the ground. I have never had to shoot anyone, but the one time I drew my pistol to protect myself the adrenaline dump immediately after was so severe I could hardly stand up. My hands were shaking severely, my breath was hard to catch and my mind was racing for the rest of the day with what if's. I am trying to improve my accuracy so that in the middle of a firefight my shots will be as good as they can be. Thanks to all for such a great discussion.

Bonded HPs have mostly solved this problem. A Speer GD in 9mm generally opens to 0.65" give or take while one that has penetrated autoglass usually does 0.55" and either way meets the 12" penetration requirement. Both are significantly better than FMJ performance which stays at .355". Worst case is a bonded HP fails to expand and becomes FMJ.

[Palladin]

Don't understand why you would stagger them unless that is all you had. Curious what your rational is.

In deference to the OP, I probably should start another thread, don't want to hijack his... Because the rationale behind what feed my XD Tac (for defense) is not derived from a CC standpoint. That said, it still may be relevant to his final decision.

I've shot my share of stuff, and I just don't place a lot of faith in bullet expansion and wound cavity at .45ACP velocities. IMO the best you can hope for is a long, deep wound channel about the diameter of the projectile. And in the event that the weapon is employed, I won't be of the mindset to wait and see if the BG bleeds out from one shot. There will be many, until the BG will hold still enough for a properly placed cranio-oc. Again, this isn't a CC situation, this is a nightstand weapon - loaded 13+1, with two more 13s in the other hand. You're absolutely right, if a 230gr HP doesn't expand, you've got a 230gr FMJ. I just feel comfortable with both.

As an aside, when I was a kid, my dad and I would help a neighboring farmer at hog killing time in the fall. One day we butchered 16 hogs in the 300 - 400lb range, the farmer put each of them down with one shot from a short barreled 22 revolver, loaded with 22 shorts. The dropped like they'd been hit with a sledge hammer, not dead mind you, but unconscious so the sticker could get in to cut their throats.

Shot placement and familiarity and skill with the weapon you have is what gets the job done.
But I still love caliber and grains and feet per second as much as the other guy!

[zephyp]

@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

[gunderwood]

@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on this. The question is, would you purposefully CC a .22 pistol vice your current regular CC gun/caliber?

[zephyp]

@Bill - yup. The .22 pistol with silencer is a favored assassins tool...no doubt about that.

I don't think there is any argument on this. The question is, would you purposefully CC a .22 pistol vice your current regular CC gun/caliber?

Well I normally carry a .45 or 9mm but now that summer is almost upon us I may step down to a .380 or .25 auto depending on how I'm dressed. Most defensive situations are within your personal space and those 2 calibers will work just fine as will a .22.

[Vahunter]

Back to the question. I carry a .45, Springfield XD to be exact.

[WRW]

Back to the question. I carry a .45, Springfield XD to be exact.

If we're gonna go there, in that caliber I carry a Defender...and love it.

[Palladin]

Back to the question. I carry a .45, Springfield XD to be exact.

I really like this guy!

[gunderwood]

Back to the question. I carry a .45, Springfield XD to be exact.

I really like this guy!

Wait, wasn't this whole tangent because I was answering the OP's questions about what I thought of .45 for CC and a couple of people took offence that I suggested .45 performance fell off in a short barrel? All this time I provided data that it did, while no one could provide data or test results showing things had changed from the last tests I had seen. All the while insisting that a sling shot is better than the four common defence calibers for CC and generally ignoring the point that caliber/HP/etc. allow for a margin of error in a self defence shooting. Margin for error is a good thing IMHO. Insisting of course that they only take head shots with said sling shot, never miss and are impervious to stress, fear or any other accuracy degrading mechanism. In addition, it should be noted that the primary carry gun of said offended group isn't said sling shot, but rather one of the four or at least a relatively common defence calibers loaded with quality HPs, which suggests that they don't actually care for the zero margin approach to CC which they seem to be recommending to the OP.

So exactly how have said offended group actually helped the OP with this tangent?

I CC a Wilson Combat CQB 1911 in .45ACP or a Glock 32/33. I prefer Speer GD then Win. Ranger T's in any caliber; 230gr in .45. Anything you can shoot and control well is good, but clearly a .45 has more margin for error than .25auto.

[firstcavapache64]

I will be bringing my main CC gun, a Glock model 30, .45 caliber to Bill's. It has a 3.78" barrel so I would offer it up as a test subject for the 3", 4" and 5" .45 tests. I know it's not exactly 3" but it is fairly close. I would really like to see what kind of velocity I am getting from my carry ammo. If it doesn't meet the criteria for the test maybe someone would be kind enough to allow me to test some rounds anyway. I have no experience with chronographs or any of the ballistics you guys know so well and I would love to learn some info about my ammo. I do know from my fathers use of a .45 in combat that it worked for him. Both of the North Korean soldiers he shot with one dropped with one shot to the chest area. That was a government issue full size .45 and I would like to see what difference my Glock's smaller barrel makes as far as speed and energy.

[gunderwood]

I will be bringing my main CC gun, a Glock model 30, .45 caliber to Bill's. It has a 3.78" barrel so I would offer it up as a test subject for the 3", 4" and 5" .45 tests. I know it's not exactly 3" but it is fairly close. I would really like to see what kind of velocity I am getting from my carry ammo. If it doesn't meet the criteria for the test maybe someone would be kind enough to allow me to test some rounds anyway. I have no experience with chronographs or any of the ballistics you guys know so well and I would love to learn some info about my ammo. I do know from my fathers use of a .45 in combat that it worked for him. Both of the North Korean soldiers he shot with one dropped with one shot to the chest area. That was a government issue full size .45 and I would like to see what difference my Glock's smaller barrel makes as far as speed and energy.

As I was trying to explain through this whole thread, there is no velocity criteria for say. The velocity a specific round comes out of your gun should be matched to the design velocity of the bullet. That provides the greatest margin for error.

[WRW]

I can't vouch for these tests or their methods...this site claims professional testing: http://45-acp.com/ammo.html