carry weapon suggestions

[guitarpicva]

That is a pretty broad statement Jim. I do believe that the ammunition that they were made to carry was high power but they can be purchased in lower velocity and weight types. As far as them being pushed back into the caseing with repeated chambering this happens to many types and calibers in Law Enforcement in every state in the country. Not just troopers, but all types of law enforcement.
Bill

Setback issue seemed to have occurred as the cartridge was introduced and apparently more reputable manufacturers have few problems with this any longer. All in all though, it's good to have the info!

Personally, I don't see the point in .357 SIG when a .40 S&W has similar recoil, cheaper and more available ammo, and a bigger bore.

[BluemontGlock]

so about 3 weeks ago, was having a conversation regarding our favorite subject with nieghboor, and he smiled really big and said "Guess what i just got..." and whipped out a Glock 33 in 357 SIG, i had never fired that calibre before...and he said "COME ON, lets shoot it"... so off to the backyard, a few targets and a few holly empties later ...(Weeeeeeeeee)

smooth and precisce...plenty of bang...nice pistol, nice round!

[WRW]

Personally, I don't see the point in .357 SIG when a .40 S&W has similar recoil, cheaper and more available ammo, and a bigger bore.

Higher muzzle velocities giving flatter trajectories, better barrier penetration, greater energy, more reliable feeding with the bottled neck to name a few points. For civilian use, I'm with you on the .40 being adequate.
BTW, the .357 Sig is, if I'm not mistaken, a 9mm (.355) on a larger case. Shouldn't use 9mm bullets or regular .40 shells for reloading, though.

[guitarpicva]

Personally, I don't see the point in .357 SIG when a .40 S&W has similar recoil, cheaper and more available ammo, and a bigger bore.

Higher muzzle velocities giving flatter trajectories, better barrier penetration, greater energy, more reliable feeding with the bottled neck to name a few points. For civilian use, I'm with you on the .40 being adequate.
BTW, the .357 Sig is, if I'm not mistaken, a 9mm (.355) on a larger case. Shouldn't use 9mm bullets or regular .40 shells for reloading, though.

Flatter trajectory is fine, but for a carry gun, how much does it really matter at 7-10 yards? Velocity is really not all that important either, but the bullet selection certainly is if you wanna talk penetration.

From what I am reading and gathering firsthand from experienced game hunters, momentum is a more accurate measure of effectiveness than Kinetic Energy. Thus heavier bullet is better, higher caliber is better (because you can use heavier bullets), not so much on the velocity. Hunters pick a heavy bullet weight by caliber and moderate the muzzle velocity for accuracy. So a .45 Colt slung at a paltry 1200 fps with an SWC, Keith or Hornady XTP bullet is a fine hunting rig out to about 100 yds. from a sixgun. For self-defense, the XTP is more appropriate because it expands predictably at low to moderate velocities. That's why I use them in my muzzleloader.

[SgtBill]

What do you concider low to moderate speed's. A well constructed hollow point need's at least 1,000 feet per second to get reliable opening upon contact with body fluid.
Bill

[WRW]

Flatter trajectory is fine, but for a carry gun, how much does it really matter at 7-10 yards? Velocity is really not all that important either, but the bullet selection certainly is if you wanna talk penetration.

From what I am reading and gathering firsthand from experienced game hunters, momentum is a more accurate measure of effectiveness than Kinetic Energy. Thus heavier bullet is better, higher caliber is better (because you can use heavier bullets), not so much on the velocity. Hunters pick a heavy bullet weight by caliber and moderate the muzzle velocity for accuracy. So a .45 Colt slung at a paltry 1200 fps with an SWC, Keith or Hornady XTP bullet is a fine hunting rig out to about 100 yds. from a sixgun. For self-defense, the XTP is more appropriate because it expands predictably at low to moderate velocities. That's why I use them in my muzzleloader.

7-10 yards is only where the majority of gunfights occur...it is not a barrier. I can't discuss hunting loads intelligently as I was always a bird hunter, but there is an anecdotal story of a trooper trying to shoot a trucker with a .45 and not being able to penetrate the door. A second trooper, using a .357Sig was able to penetrate the door and end the standoff. Earlier, I said that the .40 should be adequate for civilian use...civilians don't typically have to shoot through truck doors.

[guitarpicva]

7-10 yards is only where the majority of gunfights occur...it is not a barrier....

Actually, I think according to the FBI, 5 FEET is where most gun fights occur. Honestly, I think we worry WAY too much about these questions. Statistically, most BG's run away when confronted with a gun.

The 7-10 yds. thing is from accepted training practices for self-defense. A man running at you from 7 yds. will get to you in < 3 seconds, so you (are supposed to) practice presenting your weapon ready to fire in less than that time. It's a generally litigiously acceptable (is that even a word?) distance, meaning you can probably get away if aware of the threat from a longer distance....it's all very subjective, and there are pro's on this board who know WAY more than me about this subject. Just wanted to clear up where I came up with the 7-10 yds. thingy.

Good discussion!

[WRW]

Couple of good points in this as regards 5' vs. 20': http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_trai ... ndex1.html

[WRW]

What do you concider low to moderate speed's. A well constructed hollow point need's at least 1,000 feet per second to get reliable opening upon contact with body fluid.
Bill

Does that apply to .45ACP? My understanding was that they only approached that speed with +P loads.

[guitarpicva]

What do you concider low to moderate speed's. A well constructed hollow point need's at least 1,000 feet per second to get reliable opening upon contact with body fluid.
Bill

Hornady XTP's are designed for 700-1500 fps muzzle velocity.

See, http://www.hornady.com/bullets near the bottom of that page.

I run my muzzleloader at about 1900 fps.

A lot of well-respected handgun hunters shoot .45 Colt at 1200 fps. See all kinds of examples and discussions at:

http://www.handgunhunt.com

Also, there is a lot of real world, hands on experience chronicled by John Linebaugh at:

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

[SgtBill]

What do you concider low to moderate speed's. A well constructed hollow point need's at least 1,000 feet per second to get reliable opening upon contact with body fluid.
Bill

Hornady XTP's are designed for 700-1500 fps muzzle velocity.

See, http://www.hornady.com/bullets near the bottom of that page.

I run my muzzleloader at about 1900 fps.

A lot of well-respected handgun hunters shoot .45 Colt at 1200 fps. See all kinds of examples and discussions at:

http://www.handgunhunt.com



Also, there is a lot of real world, hands on experience chronicled by John Linebaugh at:

http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

Well guitarpicva it seem's that you do a lot of reading and that is great for you if that is the only way that you can learn. For myself I don't have to read thing's that other people have written over the year's I have lived it and then some. I am not very good at putting thing's to print But trust me I have been their and done that. When I speak about the ability for a projectile to expand I am not speaking about book learning I am speaking from first hand knowledge of putting rounds on target and being at the autopsy seeing the damage done by same. Not the damage done on test media. If I speak or write about damage to deer from my handloads it is from spending the time and looking at the damage when I clean them out and I do as many as I can each year. I have been known to clean up to 14 deer in one year just from my own hunting along with many more for my son's and daughter's hunting.

In Reffrence to the .45 ACP question from WRW
A light weight 180 grain WW silvertip .45 A.C.P. will trip my chronagraph at over 1,000 F.P.S.

As far as the Hornady X.T.P I know about them I have harvested many deer and wild pig's with them in my handloads. many of the .44 Mag. revolvers that I have owned over the past 45 years were and are used with my handloads.7-10 yards is only where the majority of gunfights occur...it is not a barrier....[/quote]

Actually, I think according to the FBI, 5 FEET is where most gun fights occur. Honestly, I think we worry WAY too much about these questions. Statistically, most BG's run away when confronted with a gun.
The 7-10 yds. thing is from accepted training practices for self-defense. A man running at you from 7 yds. will get to you in < 3 seconds, so you (are supposed to) practice presenting your weapon ready to fire in less than that time. It's a generally litigiously acceptable (is that even a word?) distance, meaning you can probably get away if aware of the threat from a longer distance....it's all very subjective, and there are pro's on this board who know WAY more than me about this subject. Just wanted to clear up where I came up with the 7-10 yds. thingy.


Sgt. Bill's reply
More like 18 inches to 3 yard's up to 7 yard's and most bad guy's don't just run away. They are too high or to drunk or just too plain stupid. You do not extend your arms with your weapon in hand in a close combat shoot out. The proper training will teach you the use of the speed rock shooting position. I don't know about any other people on this board but I do not run away from a fight or a shoot out, I would not nor will I present my back to someone for a target. That's why I made it to the ripe old age of 63. Ok I have said enough.
Bill

Good discussion![/quote]

[CCFan]

BTW, the .357 Sig is, if I'm not mistaken, a 9mm (.355) on a larger case. Shouldn't use 9mm bullets or regular .40 shells for reloading, though.

Just curious, what do you mean you shouldn't use 9mm bullets? Are you talking about lighter projectiles? I've seen reloading data for .357 Sig that actually lists 9mm projectiles in the heavier bullets...

[guitarpicva]

.
Well guitarpicva it seem's that you do a lot of reading and that is great for you if that is the only way that you can learn. For myself I don't have to read thing's that other people have written over the year's I have lived it and then some. I am not very good at putting thing's to print But trust me I have been their and done that. When I speak about the ability for a projectile to expand I am not speaking about book learning I am speaking from first hand knowledge of putting rounds on target and being at the autopsy seeing the damage done by same. Not the damage done on test media. If I speak or write about damage to deer from my handloads it is from spending the time and looking at the damage when I clean them out and I do as many as I can each year. I have been known to clean up to 14 deer in one year just from my own hunting along with many more for my son's and daughter's hunting.

In Reffrence to the .45 ACP question from WRW
A light weight 180 grain WW silvertip .45 A.C.P. will trip my chronagraph at over 1,000 F.P.S.

...

Actually, I think according to the FBI, 5 FEET is where most gun fights occur. Honestly, I think we worry WAY too much about these questions. Statistically, most BG's run away when confronted with a gun.
The 7-10 yds. thing is from accepted training practices for self-defense. A man running at you from 7 yds. will get to you in < 3 seconds, so you (are supposed to) practice presenting your weapon ready to fire in less than that time. It's a generally litigiously acceptable (is that even a word?) distance, meaning you can probably get away if aware of the threat from a longer distance....it's all very subjective, and there are pro's on this board who know WAY more than me about this subject. Just wanted to clear up where I came up with the 7-10 yds. thingy.


Sgt. Bill's reply
More like 18 inches to 3 yard's up to 7 yard's and most bad guy's don't just run away. They are too high or to drunk or just too plain stupid. You do not extend your arms with your weapon in hand in a close combat shoot out. The proper training will teach you the use of the speed rock shooting position. I don't know about any other people on this board but I do not run away from a fight or a shoot out, I would not nor will I present my back to someone for a target. That's why I made it to the ripe old age of 63. Ok I have said enough.
Bill

Well, obviously, I'm an idiot, so I'll leave this discussion to you.

[WRW]

BTW, the .357 Sig is, if I'm not mistaken, a 9mm (.355) on a larger case. Shouldn't use 9mm bullets or regular .40 shells for reloading, though.

Just curious, what do you mean you shouldn't use 9mm bullets? Are you talking about lighter projectiles? I've seen reloading data for .357 Sig that actually lists 9mm projectiles in the heavier bullets...

Yeah, shame on me for not making myself clear. There had been problems early on with using just ANY 9mm projectile...they were not mushrooming properly.

[WRW]

In Reffrence to the .45 ACP question from WRW
A light weight 180 grain WW silvertip .45 A.C.P. will trip my chronagraph at over 1,000 F.P.S.

Thanks for that info.

[CCFan]

I just read another blog where they were talking about "not just any" projectile, and I had to go back and find it - there's also an issue with 9mm bullet taper...
http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/357/357SIG-caution.htm - there's a few interesting things mentioned there, actually...

Which got me thinking... since the .357 Sig is a 40 S&W necked down - why not just take the next step and neck down a 10mm? (I'm digging my 10mm more and more...)

Of course, it's already been done:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x25_Dillon
and the ammo is...well.... wow.... just wow.
Double Tap 9x25 info

Okay, back on topic: A Sig P239 in .357 would appear to be a very nice carry piece - it fits the "easily concealable while still packing a punch" requirement...

[zephyp]

Hmmm. I plan for 3 scenarios listed in order of priority:

1. Less than 5 feet which is normally how you might be accosted on the street and the most likely scenario where defense is needed since this is where you're most vulnerable
2. Out to 20 feet for in the home which I figure to be second most likely place
3. 0-? if the SHTF

As a side note, I've never been in any of these scenarios and hope I never do. I use the word likely merely as a qualifier...

[GS78]

[ Sgt. Bill's reply
More like 18 inches to 3 yard's up to 7 yard's and most bad guy's don't just run away. They are too high or to drunk or just too plain stupid. You do not extend your arms with your weapon in hand in a close combat shoot out. The proper training will teach you the use of the speed rock shooting position. I don't know about any other people on this board but I do not run away from a fight or a shoot out, I would not nor will I present my back to someone for a target. That's why I made it to the ripe old age of 63. Ok I have said enough.
Bill

Good discussion!

[/quote]
........ .....(swiping one hand with the other).....done, and done. From 18 inches that person is already in the kill zone without drawing a weapon, from farther out, Its just gravy.

[SgtBill]

.
Well guitarpicva it seem's that you do a lot of reading and that is great for you if that is the only way that you can learn. For myself I don't have to read thing's that other people have written over the year's I have lived it and then some. I am not very good at putting thing's to print But trust me I have been their and done that. When I speak about the ability for a projectile to expand I am not speaking about book learning I am speaking from first hand knowledge of putting rounds on target and being at the autopsy seeing the damage done by same. Not the damage done on test media. If I speak or write about damage to deer from my handloads it is from spending the time and looking at the damage when I clean them out and I do as many as I can each year. I have been known to clean up to 14 deer in one year just from my own hunting along with many more for my son's and daughter's hunting.

In Reffrence to the .45 ACP question from WRW
A light weight 180 grain WW silvertip .45 A.C.P. will trip my chronagraph at over 1,000 F.P.S.

...

Actually, I think according to the FBI, 5 FEET is where most gun fights occur. Honestly, I think we worry WAY too much about these questions. Statistically, most BG's run away when confronted with a gun.
The 7-10 yds. thing is from accepted training practices for self-defense. A man running at you from 7 yds. will get to you in < 3 seconds, so you (are supposed to) practice presenting your weapon ready to fire in less than that time. It's a generally litigiously acceptable (is that even a word?) distance, meaning you can probably get away if aware of the threat from a longer distance....it's all very subjective, and there are pro's on this board who know WAY more than me about this subject. Just wanted to clear up where I came up with the 7-10 yds. thingy.


Sgt. Bill's reply
More like 18 inches to 3 yard's up to 7 yard's and most bad guy's don't just run away. They are too high or to drunk or just too plain stupid. You do not extend your arms with your weapon in hand in a close combat shoot out. The proper training will teach you the use of the speed rock shooting position. I don't know about any other people on this board but I do not run away from a fight or a shoot out, I would not nor will I present my back to someone for a target. That's why I made it to the ripe old age of 63. Ok I have said enough.
Bill

Well, obviously, I'm an idiot, so I'll leave this discussion to you.

I never said you were an idiot, but real life experience is a hell of a lot better then book learning. I am sorry if I made you fell that I thought you were an idiot.
Bill

[SgtBill]

[ Sgt. Bill's reply
More like 18 inches to 3 yard's up to 7 yard's and most bad guy's don't just run away. They are too high or to drunk or just too plain stupid. You do not extend your arms with your weapon in hand in a close combat shoot out. The proper training will teach you the use of the speed rock shooting position. I don't know about any other people on this board but I do not run away from a fight or a shoot out, I would not nor will I present my back to someone for a target. That's why I made it to the ripe old age of 63. Ok I have said enough.
Bill

Good discussion!

........ .....(swiping one hand with the other).....done, and done. From 18 inches that person is already in the kill zone without drawing a weapon, from farther out, Its just gravy.[/quote]

I have to agree with you, but I am getting older now and I like to let my finger do the talking as I don't move as well as I once did. Can you not hear the grass hopper at your feet. LOL
Bill