Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

i think its great, i am what they call a no practicing christian, i believe in god, i believe in jesus, i believe im going to heaven when i die, i just dont go to church as often as say my parents would like anyways, that said, i believe that not so much that "god has blessed the company" because of it, but more that the company has prospered so much because THEY STUCK TO WHAT THEY BELIEVED IN! it makes me sad that theyve changed their stance, but honestly let the towelheads say what they want, i stand behind our troops whether they are shooting "jesus rifles" or not and i think the govt, ie beaurocrats with theirs heads stuck up their a$$es, is wasting its time with trivial pc bull when it could be focusing more on keeping our guys alive!

sorry, ive had a friend die overseas as im sure a lot of people on here have, sometimes it just makes my blood boil and i need to rant

Yup, they changed their stance all because of the all mighty dollar...hope they enjoy their new found fortune...some day it wont matter anyway...

zephyp wrote:Yup, they changed their stance all because of the all mighty dollar...hope they enjoy their new found fortune...some day it wont matter anyway...

The company making the sight system changed because the government is their cash cow. Refusal to bend to the wishes of the government would mean instant death to their business. We have becoma a Godless society and thats the way the government of this country wants it. Its kind of like the old line "this town aint big enough for both of us"...and thats the way our government sees it. Thats why we are in the sad shape we are in. When our government embraced God in politics and law making, we thrived as a nation, now we are "non-practicing" which really means non.

A man can not serve two masters, and the government wants us to serve them, not something else.

Well, I'm still gonna put trijicons on my Smith. It's too bad they caved in, but a mans gotta feed his family. At least they had the balls to do it. Remember "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" Personnally, I get the reference and think it's funny as hell.

GS78 wrote:I didn't read the "rest of the story" but let me guess...... some left-wing kookball from either abc, or the west wing wants all our troops on the line to immediateley stop using those weapons....right?

Sorry GS78 actually the Department of Defense demanded that the inscriptions be removed, to which the company apologized and promised to fix it. Repair kits are already out. Since the company admitted it should not have happened end of story. Why anyone would try and make this a left V right issue is beyond me. Those inscriptions should never have been there. The only reason they were is because DOD procured a commercial product so there was no need of a RFP. In the end this was a non-story, an accident. The manufacturer was in no way trying to make a statement about Christianity to our armed forces or our enemies.

Gat6

zephyp wrote:"They" want the references removed and cite separation of church/state/military. If this is true then why does DOD regulation require chaplains to recognize religions such as islam, druid, new age, etc.

I'm curious as to why anyone would want a Biblical reference on a weapons sight that might be given to Muslims we are training. Our policy against doing anything that could be considered religious proselytizing in Iraq and Afghanistan has nothing to do with separation of church and state. Instead it has everything to do with conducting smart COIN. The group that first brought this to DOD's attention is a religious group, that was founded by a Jewish graduate of the Air Force Academy. If you view the movie "The Sword and the Cross", you'll see how or why the group was formed.

Gat 6

GS78 wrote:

zephyp wrote:Yup, they changed their stance all because of the all mighty dollar...hope they enjoy their new found fortune...some day it wont matter anyway...

The company making the sight system changed because the government is their cash cow. Refusal to bend to the wishes of the government would mean instant death to their business. We have becoma a Godless society and thats the way the government of this country wants it. Its kind of like the old line "this town aint big enough for both of us"...and thats the way our government sees it. Thats why we are in the sad shape we are in. When our government embraced God in politics and law making, we thrived as a nation, now we are "non-practicing" which really means non.

A man can not serve two masters, and the government wants us to serve them, not something else.

Can you all just stop making up stuff? They changed it because they did not intend to put inscriptions on the sights they sent to the Armed Forces. Remember this is a commercially procured off the shelf item, that's why the inscription was there. I would luv to know if any of you who are pissing over rat turds can cite any instance of a weapons accessory or weapons system RFP requiring a Biblical inscription on ea item. This was a legitimate mistake that has now been caught and corrected.

Gat 6

KennyS wrote:I don't like the picture or words Obama on my tv, will they keep him off so as I scroll channels I don't accidently cross one? Same goes for the paper or the radio? I do not believe in Obama so why should I even have to here his name? Will the White House send me an Obama remover?

If you don't want to hear or see the President you don't have too, that's why they make on/off switches, parental controls, mute buttons, ear plugs and blindfolds. Btw who said you have to have a radio or TV? Further no one requires you to read a newspaper, a magazine or anything. So please by all means exercise your freedom and use all of those items provided for your use to remove any hint of our President. Unfortunately your desires do not obviate that pesky little document called the Constitution. Funny, I guess I was mistaken..Here I thought you believed in the Constitution. I guess not.

Why should the White House send you an Obama remover anyway. Aren't you one of those people who hate lazy shiftless people wanting handouts? If you want an Obama remover you ought to work for it and earn your own. Or are you some kind of commie/socialist who believes that the govermint ought to provide for your needs?

If you feel that strongly, you can become a hermit and live in a cave, or go to Costa Rico (right!) with Russ. You could also renounce your citizenship and apply elsewhere, then the Obama would not be your President. Once he is out of office in 2012 or 2016 you could then sneak across the Southern border and get your citizenship back in the new Amnesty program for illegal immigrants. Wow that's a lot of options; you see some seemingly intractable problems are easily solved when people' actually do what they say.

I would be thrilled to host your and Russ's going away party .

Gat 6

OakRidgeStars wrote:

KennyS wrote:Will the White House send me an Obama remover?

The GOP is working on one now, but it won't be out for two more years

Sorry about that she's not interested, she would rather make a fortune. Money is such a sweet incentive to stay out of a run for office. Besides she is having a ball living without any official responsibility. She can pretty much say and do whatever she wants with no consequences. And to her fans, all she has to do is blow a lot of hot air and meaningless talking points, and they will stay by her. Why should she mess with that adoration by running for an office where she would actually have to govern and be responsible for her actions. Btw anyone who thinks she's stupid never learned to count.

I still can't fathom why people in this forum who have probably never quit on anything would want a quitter as President. There are lots of smart men and women who are conservative and who have never quit yet she is the best?

I'm truly curious, and please no talking point BS, why Palin?

Gat6

The ACOG was purchased COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). If ACOGs had biblical verses on them and Soldiers didn't know about it and carried them, do they still work? I own one now and never knew about it until this whole stink was raised. I never put 2 and 2 together about that being a biblical verse. I had seen it and just ignored it, like all 17 digits of the vehicle VIN on the car. I guess the two wars were going too well to just leave things alone. The media needed to do something to try to stir up some anger at the US. John 8:12 says, "Then Jesus spoke to them, again, saying "I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

@gatlingun - wow. You say soros is a capitalist and the company putting the Biblical references on the sights took them off because they didnt mean for them to be there. You have, IMO, things backwards.

Soros is a socialist who leeches off the capitalist system.

The company took the Biblical references off these sights as they are more tied to money than they are to God...again capitalism....

The inscriptions and CLEAR reference to Bible verses is not even in contention by the company that produced them. It was not an "accident" as some misinformed boob contends.

zephyp wrote:@gatlingun - wow. You say soros is a capitalist and the company putting the Biblical references on the sights took them off because they didnt mean for them to be there. You have, IMO, things backwards.

Soros is a socialist who leeches off the capitalist system.

The company took the Biblical references off these sights as they are more tied to money than they are to God...again capitalism....

Nice try zephyp but the facts speak for themselves calling the manager of the Quantum Hedge Fund a socialist simply shows how far out of touch with reality you are. Soros is the speculators, speculator who was smart enough to make money off the UK's mistakes, and the mistakes of the so-called smartest people in the room on Wall street. If being smarter than next guy and with a better sense of timing is leeching, I say let's have more leeches among my investment fund managers. Why on earth would you have a problem with anyone who proved to be more astute than his peers at making money in the financial services industry? Instead of calling the man a socialist and who knows what other "isms", which only hurt you and not him, you forgo peeking inside this brilliant capitalists head.

Instead of personally disparaging and dismissing the man, you would be better served by asking. How did he see the super bubble coming when others didn't, why is he dismissive of the efficient market hypothesis, what does he mean by thinking versus reality, and on, and on.

Soros is not alone among the super rich capitalists in his thinking about social justice and democracy in operation. He is joined by the likes of Bill Gates, Donny Deutsch, Warren Buffet, the late Abe Polin and others. You mean they are all socialists? I truly don't see how anything good comes out of this constant slamming and hate of people with whom you disagreed politically. In the end I have to be able to conduct an adult conversation with you and vice versa. The United States of America was born out of the blood, perseverance, and ideas of men who spanned the ideological spectrum of the their time. What ultimately resulted was a grand COMPROMISE called the United States Constitution.

Surely you don't think those men who came together in Philadelphia were all of a single mind. Surely you don't think they had a group hug and out sprang the Constitution by unanimous consent. If we have learned anything over our history it's that we stand or fall as a Nation together. This world is much too competitive for us to spend our times making sure we can't have even a semblance of a civil conversation with each other.

To my dismay in the current climate if today we tried to do what the framers did we would fail miserably. In fact, I'm 100% convinced that we could not even ratify the Constitution as it is. Hell, forget the Constitution, I'll bet the Bill of Rights would not survive a national referendum intact. Combined with our take no prisoners rhetoric I'm equally convinced, unlike the framers, we would be unable to agree on changes. That my friend is a sad commentary. I say it over and over: We are the greatest nation on earth. No other nation, group of nations, or non-national entities can defeat or destroy us. However, we can destroy ourselves!


Gat6

If we cannot hang together, then surely we will hang alone

GS78 wrote:The inscriptions and CLEAR reference to Bible verses is not even in contention by the company that produced them. It was not an "accident" as some misinformed boob contends.

Did you bother to read that the sights in question are commercially procured off the shelf items? Indeed those inscriptions were there on purpose. They were not suddenly placed on the sights because they had a contract with DOD. Seeing some conspiracy either way is just making a mountain out of a molehill. The fact that the corporation readily agreed to replace those parts was just a commonsense decision.

Gat6

grumpyMSG wrote:The ACOG was purchased COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). If ACOGs had biblical verses on them and Soldiers didn't know about it and carried them, do they still work? I own one now and never knew about it until this whole stink was raised. I never put 2 and 2 together about that being a biblical verse. I had seen it and just ignored it, like all 17 digits of the vehicle VIN on the car. I guess the two wars were going too well to just leave things alone. The media needed to do something to try to stir up some anger at the US. John 8:12 says, "Then Jesus spoke to them, again, saying "I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life."

I'm not sure I totally disagree with you. Essentially you wrote what you don't know won't hurt you. I suppose that might be partially true. That aside, another part of your post was troubling. Instead of assuming, let me ask: When the media outlet that received the tip completed their due diligence and confirmed that indeed the inscriptions were there, what did you want them to do and why? Cover the story? Remain silent? Quietly inform the Pentagon? Personally I would have been uncomfortable had the media outlet done nothing.

Just because you or I didn't know, it stands to reason that sooner or later the inscription story would be out. With our enemies saying we are about converting Muslims to Christians how smart is it to give them anything that seemingly lends credence to their case?

Gat6

bennihanna wrote:i think its great, i am what they call a no practicing christian, i believe in god, i believe in jesus, i believe im going to heaven when i die, i just dont go to church as often as say my parents would like anyways, that said, i believe that not so much that "god has blessed the company" because of it, but more that the company has prospered so much because THEY STUCK TO WHAT THEY BELIEVED IN! it makes me sad that theyve changed their stance, but honestly let the towelheads say what they want, i stand behind our troops whether they are shooting "jesus rifles" or not and i think the govt, ie beaurocrats with theirs heads stuck up their a$$es, is wasting its time with trivial pc bull when it could be focusing more on keeping our guys alive!

sorry, ive had a friend die overseas as im sure a lot of people on here have, sometimes it just makes my blood boil and i need to rant

Mr bennihanna why are you calling our troops, or anyone "towel heads"? The initial complaint came from MEMBERS OF THE US ARMED FORCES who thought this was exactly the sort of thing that played right into the hands of Muslim extremists. Apparently, you only stand behind some of our troops, namely those with whom you agree. You certainty don't stand behind those trainers who made the problem known.

Our enemies say we are engaged in another Crusade that is out to destroy Islam and convert Muslims to Christianity. To say it's a trivial matter is saying you don't care about anyone's religious sensibilities except your own. Would you say no big deal if I gave you equipment with Koranic inscriptions and nick named the rifles Mohammad's Wrath? Members of our armed forces are not subjected to any religious test whatsoever. They may claim without penalty whatever religion they want, or no religion at all. Are you advocating that we procure sights with Koranic, Talmudic, Buddhist, etc. inscriptions and assign them to troopers of like religions?

The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), which someone said is not religious or not Christian, further brought this to attention to the Pentagon. As the name implies, the MRFF stands for exactly that, religious freedom in the armed forces. If you think they are just a bunch of atheists, you discuss that with the evangelical Christian Schaeffer. Besides, what if they were atheists. What does it matter who brought the issue to the Pentagon's attention. Our military fights under the banner of the American Flag, not the Cross of Constantine, or any other religious symbol.

Finally, I still don't understand why having Christian Biblical inscriptions on rifles we use or convey to our Muslim allies does anything positive in our fight against Muslim extremists.

Gat6

gatlingun6 wrote:

GS78 wrote:The inscriptions and CLEAR reference to Bible verses is not even in contention by the company that produced them. It was not an "accident" as some misinformed boob contends.

Did you bother to read that the sights in question are commercially procured off the shelf items? Indeed those inscriptions were there on purpose. They were not suddenly placed on the sights because they had a contract with DOD. Seeing some conspiracy either way is just making a mountain out of a molehill. The fact that the corporation readily agreed to replace those parts was just a commonsense decision.

Gat6

Precisely what I said....quite a few posts ago..

gatlingun6 wrote:[






There are lots of smart men and women who are conservative and who have never quit yet she is the best?


Gat6

Just to keep you honest, name some.

@gatlingun6 - You are so correct and I am indeed so far out of touch that I will not read your posts but merely bid all a good night and toddle off to bed with my dear sweet Young...

Good night all..........

VBshooter wrote:DK wrote" Your clock stopped. That time was a while ago..." Seeing what it is costing us over there I think "They" should shut up!!! It's gotten very old having to compromise our beliefs and customs to accomodate some group of ungratefuls that may take offense, Time to stop listenting to them and do what is right for the US ,,, If "They" take offense ,,Turn up the volume and drown em out!

A most interesting post when did you and yours get the right to impose your religion on anyone in uniform.No one is asking you to compromise your beliefs. Believe what you want, and who is this "them" and "they" to whom you refer? When or if you were in combat did you require that none of "them" or "they" fought in close proximity to you? I'll keep saying it until the day I die. Our men and women in uniform serve under the banner of the United States of America. It's the American Flag that we honor not any particular religion, or any religion at all.

How stunning that people who so profess to love the Constitution show in their posts nothing but disdain for that document, indeed the American Republic. Maybe I missed it but I didn't see an oath that required military members or elected officials to pledge anything or honor any God. Why is that? Precisely because of comments we see here every single day. The framers did not somehow forget to place God in any Constitutional article or amendment, it was a purposeful omission.

Three closing questions for you who apparently want the Christian God written into our Constitution, which is beyond the shadow of a doubt a totally secular document written by men to govern other men with their consent. Question 1: How are you any different in tone than those Muslims who insist that Islam be enshrined in their constitutions? Question 2: Why do you think an all powerful God needs the assistance of a government run by inevitably un Christ like men to prosper? Are you advocating a Theocracy? Actually, it's the opposite religion thrives precisely because government for the most part is separate and apart from it.


Gat6
The fundamental LAW of our nation — the basis of our liberties — is the Constitution, not the Bible. Indeed, it is the Constitution that elected officials are sworn to uphold.