Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

My neighborhood is on the edge of Lake Ridge. Lots of little dogs, Poms and Dachshunds and a couple of Pugs. I have a decent sized dog, but I'm starting to worry about my neighbors dogs now. Think a .38 or .40 will be sufficient or should I bust out the 10mm?

Jim

I wouldn't worry. They'll eat the smaller, slower dogs first.

jrswanson1 wrote:My neighborhood is on the edge of Lake Ridge. Lots of little dogs, Poms and Dachshunds and a couple of Pugs. I have a decent sized dog, but I'm starting to worry about my neighbors dogs now. Think a .38 or .40 will be sufficient or should I bust out the 10mm?

Jim

I assume your concern is about coyotes going after the local dogs, and not the local dogs going after you (or your dog)?

Coyotes seem to be pretty thin-skinned. Probably anything you'd use for defense against a human would work fine against the yote. 10mm is probably too much, it would be through-and-through too quick to do much expanding unless you got it with a fore-and-aft shot. They're not big animals.

You can easily solve the coyote problem in your neighborhood. Lock up your little munchkins and start with the ole dying rabbit call. Sit back and wait for em to come in and have some fun...

Diomed wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:My neighborhood is on the edge of Lake Ridge. Lots of little dogs, Poms and Dachshunds and a couple of Pugs. I have a decent sized dog, but I'm starting to worry about my neighbors dogs now. Think a .38 or .40 will be sufficient or should I bust out the 10mm?

Jim

I assume your concern is about coyotes going after the local dogs, and not the local dogs going after you (or your dog)?

Yes, I'm more worried about the coyotes.

Diomed wrote:Coyotes seem to be pretty thin-skinned. Probably anything you'd use for defense against a human would work fine against the yote. 10mm is probably too much, it would be through-and-through too quick to do much expanding unless you got it with a fore-and-aft shot. They're not big animals.

How much do coyotes weigh? I see guys on TV hunting them with .223s and 22-250s, so I was thinking that something with a little more zip would work. My apartment borders a park with lots of trees next to Occoquan Reservoir. I carry to deal with 2-legged predators, now I have to worry about Wile E. Coyote? Anyone have a handgun round that will work on both?

Jim

jrswanson1 wrote: How much do coyotes weigh? I see guys on TV hunting them with .223s and 22-250s, so I was thinking that something with a little more zip would work. My apartment borders a park with lots of trees next to Occoquan Reservoir. I carry to deal with 2-legged predators, now I have to worry about Wile E. Coyote? Anyone have a handgun round that will work on both?

Jim

I'll bet they're 50-60 lbs or less. I'm guessing something like a .40 S&W would be sufficient, for personal defense.

They are roughly in between a fox and a wolf in size and they average between 15-35 LBS.and as metioned above they are thin skinned so .38 and .40 are more than enough to put one down if the need arose.

I use a 40 S&W with JHPs works fine every time.

jrswanson1 wrote: How much do coyotes weigh?

Depends on how many little dogs they've had for dinner...

jrswanson1 wrote:I see guys on TV hunting them with .223s and 22-250s, so I was thinking that something with a little more zip would work.

The reason varmint hunters love fast rounds is ranging error. Varmints often don't stand still enough to get really good range data, so a "flat" shooting round compensates for ranging errors. I.e. since the round takes less time to reach the target, it drops less...the danger space is larger. This is true up to a point. At long ranges a slower VLD will eventually take less time to get to the target than a high speed varmint round (assuming the same cartridge) because of the better BC. The VLD also has less wind drift at all ranges.

Also, varmint rounds tend to be very lightly constructed so that when they hit thin skinned game, they break apart. It makes for a good fun and makes misses significantly less dangerous than VLD designs. VLDs love to skip into the next county (I'm exaggerating). A 40-55gr .22 caliber pill at 3000-4000fps is very good varmint cartridge out to reasonable ranges.

For ranges less than 100-150 yards, a good rimfire is probably the most practical option. .22Mag or .17HMR2 would be my choices. Unless you just like crazy, which I do. I have a 300 Varminter (300WSM/125gr Nosler BT or 110gr Hornady V-Max@3800-4000fps), check out the show your hardware section. I have a 6mmBR which will be setup for the 75gr V-Maxs that should be done early next year. Next I want a 20BR. A 20cal 50gr Berger to 4000fps would be sweet!

/Of course most ranging errors could be virtually eliminated if varmint hunters just learned to make a range card like tactical shooters do. Do all of the hard work up front so you just have to shoot when the varmint appears.

An abundance of 'yotes in Floyd Cty.. A guy I know reports regularly hearing them within a quarter mile or so of his place. Any time 'yotes come up in conversation, somebody is bound to say "Saw one the other day at....."

gunderwood wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:I see guys on TV hunting them with .223s and 22-250s, so I was thinking that something with a little more zip would work.

The reason varmint hunters love fast rounds is ranging error. Varmints often don't stand still enough to get really good range data, so a "flat" shooting round compensates for ranging errors. I.e. since the round takes less time to reach the target, it drops less...the danger space is larger. This is true up to a point. At long ranges a slower VLD will eventually take less time to get to the target than a high speed varmint round (assuming the same cartridge) because of the better BC. The VLD also has less wind drift at all ranges.

Also, varmint rounds tend to be very lightly constructed so that when they hit thin skinned game, they break apart. It makes for a good fun and makes misses significantly less dangerous than VLD designs. VLDs love to skip into the next county (I'm exaggerating). A 40-55gr .22 caliber pill at 3000-4000fps is very good varmint cartridge out to reasonable ranges.

For ranges less than 100-150 yards, a good rimfire is probably the most practical option. .22Mag or .17HMR2 would be my choices. Unless you just like crazy, which I do. I have a 300 Varminter (300WSM/125gr Nosler BT or 110gr Hornady V-Max@3800-4000fps), check out the show your hardware section. I have a 6mmBR which will be setup for the 75gr V-Maxs that should be done early next year. Next I want a 20BR. A 20cal 50gr Berger to 4000fps would be sweet!

/Of course most ranging errors could be virtually eliminated if varmint hunters just learned to make a range card like tactical shooters do. Do all of the hard work up front so you just have to shoot when the varmint appears.

A good range finder to specific points within the field of fire would alleviate that. And knowing the dope on your round helps, too.

That said, for contact distances, I'll just use the .38 or .40. Although I would love to own a 38-40, I don't have the money for one yet.

Jim

jrswanson1 wrote:

gunderwood wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:I see guys on TV hunting them with .223s and 22-250s, so I was thinking that something with a little more zip would work.

The reason varmint hunters love fast rounds is ranging error. Varmints often don't stand still enough to get really good range data, so a "flat" shooting round compensates for ranging errors. I.e. since the round takes less time to reach the target, it drops less...the danger space is larger. This is true up to a point. At long ranges a slower VLD will eventually take less time to get to the target than a high speed varmint round (assuming the same cartridge) because of the better BC. The VLD also has less wind drift at all ranges.

Also, varmint rounds tend to be very lightly constructed so that when they hit thin skinned game, they break apart. It makes for a good fun and makes misses significantly less dangerous than VLD designs. VLDs love to skip into the next county (I'm exaggerating). A 40-55gr .22 caliber pill at 3000-4000fps is very good varmint cartridge out to reasonable ranges.

For ranges less than 100-150 yards, a good rimfire is probably the most practical option. .22Mag or .17HMR2 would be my choices. Unless you just like crazy, which I do. I have a 300 Varminter (300WSM/125gr Nosler BT or 110gr Hornady V-Max@3800-4000fps), check out the show your hardware section. I have a 6mmBR which will be setup for the 75gr V-Maxs that should be done early next year. Next I want a 20BR. A 20cal 50gr Berger to 4000fps would be sweet!

/Of course most ranging errors could be virtually eliminated if varmint hunters just learned to make a range card like tactical shooters do. Do all of the hard work up front so you just have to shoot when the varmint appears.

A good range finder to specific points within the field of fire would alleviate that. And knowing the dope on your round helps, too.

That said, for contact distances, I'll just use the .38 or .40. Although I would love to own a 38-40, I don't have the money for one yet.

Jim

Yes, a good range finder does help (that is one way to build the range card), but terrain doesn't always work in your favor. Laser Rangefinders don't work well in bright sun or when the terrain is flat. I have the Zeiss Victory LRF Binoculars. The next step up is mil-spec equipment out of Switzerland that starts at $4k and goes to $15k and they don't have as nice glass as the Zeiss's do.

Knowing you dope is a given. If I tell you the distance is 739.5 yards (and I can actually measure that precisely) you can't do jack without dope. Without dope you might as well not know the range (unless you can do TOF and drop calcs in your head to get close).

Reported sighting in Ashburn Village. Was sure it was not a fox and not a dog.

gunderwood wrote: Yes, a good range finder does help (that is one way to build the range card), but terrain doesn't always work in your favor. Laser Rangefinders don't work well in bright sun or when the terrain is flat. I have the Zeiss Victory LRF Binoculars. The next step up is mil-spec equipment out of Switzerland that starts at $4k and goes to $15k and they don't have as nice glass as the Zeiss's do.

Knowing you dope is a given. If I tell you the distance is 739.5 yards (and I can actually measure that precisely) you can't do jack without dope. Without dope you might as well not know the range (unless you can do TOF and drop calcs in your head to get close).

I use a pair of Zeiss binocs and they are great. Mine are over 20 years old and beat to hell.

If you are going to hit consistently at 500+ yards you need to know a little more than just range and dope on your cartridge...wind speed/direction for one. Humidity also helps for those long shots. TOF and drop are only part of the equation for making a confident shot at 739.5 yards. And and 739.5 yards, unless your rifle shoots MOA or close to it you're probably wasting ammo unless the target is a barn - well maybe an outhouse....

zephyp wrote:

gunderwood wrote: Yes, a good range finder does help (that is one way to build the range card), but terrain doesn't always work in your favor. Laser Rangefinders don't work well in bright sun or when the terrain is flat. I have the Zeiss Victory LRF Binoculars. The next step up is mil-spec equipment out of Switzerland that starts at $4k and goes to $15k and they don't have as nice glass as the Zeiss's do.

Knowing you dope is a given. If I tell you the distance is 739.5 yards (and I can actually measure that precisely) you can't do jack without dope. Without dope you might as well not know the range (unless you can do TOF and drop calcs in your head to get close).

I use a pair of Zeiss binocs and they are great. Mine are over 20 years old and beat to hell.

If you are going to hit consistently at 500+ yards you need to know a little more than just range and dope on your cartridge...wind speed/direction for one. Humidity also helps for those long shots. TOF and drop are only part of the equation for making a confident shot at 739.5 yards. And and 739.5 yards, unless your rifle shoots MOA or close to it you're probably wasting ammo unless the target is a barn - well maybe an outhouse....

Yes. Of course more knowledge is needed. Air pressure and temperature are needed, but often dope is calculated with these in mind. Wind is part of dope. You calculate it for 1 or 10MPH (two most common) and just do simple math to scale it.

Humidity isn't that useful. It does very little.

gunderwood wrote:

zephyp wrote:

gunderwood wrote: Yes, a good range finder does help (that is one way to build the range card), but terrain doesn't always work in your favor. Laser Rangefinders don't work well in bright sun or when the terrain is flat. I have the Zeiss Victory LRF Binoculars. The next step up is mil-spec equipment out of Switzerland that starts at $4k and goes to $15k and they don't have as nice glass as the Zeiss's do.

Knowing you dope is a given. If I tell you the distance is 739.5 yards (and I can actually measure that precisely) you can't do jack without dope. Without dope you might as well not know the range (unless you can do TOF and drop calcs in your head to get close).

I use a pair of Zeiss binocs and they are great. Mine are over 20 years old and beat to hell.

If you are going to hit consistently at 500+ yards you need to know a little more than just range and dope on your cartridge...wind speed/direction for one. Humidity also helps for those long shots. TOF and drop are only part of the equation for making a confident shot at 739.5 yards. And and 739.5 yards, unless your rifle shoots MOA or close to it you're probably wasting ammo unless the target is a barn - well maybe an outhouse....

Yes. Of course more knowledge is needed. Air pressure and temperature are needed, but often dope is calculated with these in mind. Wind is part of dope. You calculate it for 1 or 10MPH (two most common) and just do simple math to scale it.

Humidity isn't that useful. It does very little.

Yes temp and humidity are also useful. And, the conversation about cartridge dope which does not normally include such things, however you can find some ballistic calculators that will accept is as a parameter for determining POA.

zephyp wrote:Yes. Of course more knowledge is needed. Air pressure and temperature are needed, but often dope is calculated with these in mind. Wind is part of dope. You calculate it for 1 or 10MPH (two most common) and just do simple math to scale it.

Humidity isn't that useful. It does very little.

Yes temp and humidity are also useful. And, the conversation about cartridge dope which does not normally include such things, however you can find some ballistic calculators that will accept is as a parameter for determining POA.[/quote]
I beg to differ. Here is the best free ballistic calc site on the Internet IMHO. There are other calcs, but here is the range card calc: http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmcard-5.1.cgi

Notice it takes into account your zero temp and elevations. It also prints several el/w dopes for temps and altitude (which is a way to roll barometric pressure into the calc...i.e. air density). so yes, it is part of dope. What is usually done is el/w dope is calculated for a standard atmosphere and a data book is kept to record offsets due to the environment. You can't reasonably calculate every possible combination and reference it. It would take up a lot of space. Thus, ballistic computers. Dope data is recorded with all of the environmental factors.

Furthermore, humidity is the least important environmental variable. Using the JBM calc for a 175gr SMK@2650fps at 85F and 0% humidity I get: 38.2MOA of drop. Exact same settings and 100% humidity yields: 37.7MOA drop. Yes, water vapor is less dense than air so there is less drag and thus the bullet arrives quicker. Since the TOF is less, there is less drop at high humidity. However, even at 1000 yards, the difference is only 0.5 MOA for the maximum extremes.

Bryan Litz even notes in his applied ballistic book that humidity is the least important.

@Garrett - you misquoted me...I think you got the quote tags screwed up...humidity may be the least important but if you are going to consistently make shots at the ranges we're discussing all the variables matter. Just sayin.

zephyp wrote:@Garrett - you misquoted me...I think you got the quote tags screwed up...humidity may be the least important but if you are going to consistently make shots at the ranges we're discussing all the variables matter. Just sayin.

Ya, that was a typo. Of course you have to account for many things. The issue I had was when you said that dope didn't include things like wind, etc. Dope is more than basic drop. Basic drop is what most people start learning first which is why you see most of the discussions explaining just that. After that, people buy log books or make their own and tend to not ask a lot of questions. Thus, while dope includes many things not just basic drop, it often isn't asked about much because those of us who know how to do it don't post on forums asking how to calc dope.