Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Not joking at all. Take Hamas. To the Israelis, they are terrorists. To the Palestinians they are freedom fighters seeking to end the occupation of Palestinian lands by the Israelis.

Terrorists use the tactics you mentioned largely out of necessity. They can't call in airstrikes or send in tanks, so they resort to more "accessible" means of attacking their enemies and achieving their goals. If we gave the Palestinians the military aid we give Israel I guarantee you they'd drop the suicide bombs in favor of their shiny new tanks and guidable ballistic missiles.

Also, I've yet to meet a soldier who fought "for freedom", who are they? And who are the "bad" people you keep referring to? Do they wear t-shirts that say "bad guy" so we can tell them apart?

As for being cowards, I'd argue launching a cruise missile from a ship miles away from the fighting is much more cowardly than detonating a bomb vest thats being worn.

Kreutz wrote:Not joking at all. Take Hamas. To the Israelis, they are terrorists. To the Palestinians they are freedom fighters seeking to end the occupation of Palestinian lands by the Israelis.

Members of Hamas are terrorist.

...Terrorists use the tactics you mentioned largely out of necessity...

Killing civilians, innocent women and children or non-combatives like the elderly is never a "necessity". It's a choice, and a poor one at that.

Also, I've yet to meet a soldier who fought "for freedom", who are they?

I am referring to our military. I have never served as an active duty member of DOD, but I have done lots of work for local and state police, federal law enforcement, the Army, Navy and Marine Corps. Everyone I ever worked with wanted peace and freedom and their brothers and sisters of this world to be well.

And who are the "bad" people you keep referring to? Do they wear t-shirts that say "bad guy" so we can tell them apart?

I am generalizing, speaking of people who prefer chaos over peace. People with no goal other than creating chaos.

As for being cowards, I'd argue launching a cruise missile from a ship miles away from the fighting is much more cowardly than detonating a bomb vest thats being worn.

Sure, its really brave to kill little kids, women and yourself so you don't have to be held responsible and account for your actions.

Honestly, I don't plan to continue this discussion with you any further. It seems that you are taking a stance in favor of our enemy and there is likely no convincing you that you are on the wrong side of this debate.

There will always be evil in the world. Whether it is the mongol invaders, the viking marauders, or the barbarian extreme Islamist...it is the same old same old...steal kill pillage torture and destroy.


The real enemy of those who are innocents are the politicians that attempt to disarm us against that evil and present us from defending ourselves. Those are the real enemies.....you try to attack me and mine I will put at minimum 13 rounds into you and will then try to use that gun as a club to bash your head in. But those in DC would like to see me helpless against any evil be it the islamists or the Mexican cartel or a stupid teen high on drugs. They are the real enemy.

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Islamic Jihad is the face of evil in the world today.


You infidel are the enemy of evil if you don't accept the caliphate as ruler of the earth.

YOUR fate is to be enslaved, or killed (horribly) simply because you do not accept Islamic domination. Your children and their blood mean nothing.

Did you actually read what happened in that mall? Will it take your own child's hand being sharpened like a pencil till you understand? If that is the case it may become so.


WAKE UP!

Kreutz wrote:... And who are the "bad" people you keep referring to? Do they wear t-shirts that say "bad guy" so we can tell them apart?
...

If we as humans can't live in peace, then we will be at war - it's as easy as that. This conflict is almost as old as Abraham.


If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong, and good and bad, Lord have mercy on you - 'cause they won't...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/ ... e-to-grow/

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/ ... mp=related

MarcSpaz wrote:Members of Hamas are terrorist.

According to.....?

Killing civilians, innocent women and children or non-combatives like the elderly is never a "necessity". It's a choice, and a poor one at that.

We can ask the civilians, innocent women and children or non-combatives of Hiroshima, Dresden, and Nagasaki what they think about this.

Oh, they were turned to ash. Nevermind.

I am referring to our military. I have never served as an active duty member of DOD, but I have done lots of work for local and state police, federal law enforcement, the Army, Navy and Marine Corps. Everyone I ever worked with wanted peace and freedom and their brothers and sisters of this world to be well.

You should watch the footage Manning released of US Army gunships firing on what they thought was Iraqi civilians and laughing about it. Turned out they were AP reporters. Whoops!

I am generalizing, speaking of people who prefer chaos over peace. People with no goal other than creating chaos.

I am unaware of any political movement in human history that had "chaos" as its end goal.

Sure, its really brave to kill little kids, women and yourself so you don't have to be held responsible and account for your actions.

Those cruise missiles only kill the intended target and no one else I guess. Damn, modern tech is amazing.

Honestly, I don't plan to continue this discussion with you any further. It seems that you are taking a stance in favor of our enemy and there is likely no convincing you that you are on the wrong side of this debate.

Who is this "our" enemies? I don't have any enemies.

Palladin wrote:

Kreutz wrote:... And who are the "bad" people you keep referring to? Do they wear t-shirts that say "bad guy" so we can tell them apart?
...

If we as humans can't live in peace, then we will be at war - it's as easy as that. This conflict is almost as old as Abraham.


If you can't tell the difference between right and wrong, and good and bad, Lord have mercy on you - 'cause they won't...

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/ ... e-to-grow/

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/09/ ... mp=related

Good thing I don't live in Kenya, Pakistan, or Egypt and have no intention of ever going there isn't it?

Filed under: Not my problem.

Well, I have been on message boards and forums since the early 90's, and it is with a heavy heart that I say that after 22 years, someone has finally made my ignore list.

Sad to say as the statists in power have copied up to the Islamists and are importing as many as they can, so it will become our problem soon enough.

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MarcSpaz wrote:Well, I have been on message boards and forums since the early 90's, and it is with a heavy heart that I say that after 22 years, someone has finally made my ignore list.

Sucks having your worldview challenged eh? I'm still miffed there's no Santa Claus; don't feel bad.

memabearcali wrote:Sad to say as the statists in power have copied up to the Islamists and are importing as many as they can, so it will become our problem soon enough.

Maybe?

In any event the fact the exact same rhetoric was directed towards Catholics a century ago forces me to take the Islamophobia with a massive grain of salt.

In any event if they "win" it's simply because they wanted it more. To the victor goes the soils and such.

if you consider yourself an animal you expect heartless mindless behavior out of others.

All the while hating yourself.

We are animals... mammals to be specific. However the way our animal instincts to survive impacts our daily lives is a choice. The only exception is in a brown fan moment. Then some just react.

What separates humans from the rest of the food-chain is that we are self-aware, have a conscience and cumulative intellect. Yes, there are some people who are alphas and others who are omegas. People get upset, territorial, want to be in control or want to be controlled. This instinct may never go away, but unlike most other animals, we have the ability to choose to act.

I have always said that all humans have the same feelings, the same thoughts and desires. Most people repress the twisted stuff (universally agreed unacceptable social behavior) and go about their day trying to forget that the thought ever crossed their minds. People we see as evil or criminal choose to act on those feeling by engaging in those acts. Then, there is a special bread of human. The human that knows these instincts and desires exist, openly acknowledges that they are wrong and rather than repressing those feeling or acting poorly, they choose to think the way the evil person would so they can find that evil person and stop or catch them.

You all know the expression "It takes a monster to catch a monster." For our heroes, sometimes the lines blur. Sometimes they are crossed. It's always for the greater good because they choose to protect those that can't or wont protect themselves. Even when good people kill, I think this is the fundamental difference between a terrorist and our police / military. Taking another life doesn't make you an evil person by default. The reasoning and methodology do.

I don't know if the moral relativism hat Kreutz is expressing in this thread is actually what he things. He has mad troll skills, as the kids would say.

But I reject it completely. Any ideology that is not based on liberty and mutual respect for each other's individual rights can go to Hell.

FiremanBob wrote:I don't know if the moral relativism hat Kreutz is expressing in this thread is actually what he things. He has mad troll skills, as the kids would say.

Naw, being quite honest here; a dash of moral relativism is required to keep this global tit for tat in focus; otherwise we might start taking it personally.

The adage I mentioned before is true, "One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter".

I assure you had the word "terrorist" existed in the 18th century the Founding Fathers would have been labelled as such during the Revolutionary War. The Brits also called their tactics "cowardly". Some here say the same about myriad jihadists.

In any event the US has certainly engaged in actions that could only be described as "terroristic" from the opposing viewpoint. "Our enemies" do it too naturally; this is the way it is and always will be.

It just irks me when people think America has some kind of moral high ground; it doesn't.

Around the time Obama was shedding crocodile tears over the kids murdered in Sandy Hook we've killed something like 200 (known) innocent kids with our drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen. Bound to have gone up since then.

Some here will rationalize that but would of course cry bloody murder if it has been American kids blown up going about their business.

The families of those kids now have a pretty solid reason for hating the U.S., and the cycle continues. I cannot help but notice meddling in the affairs of the Muslim world has proven to be like a Gordian knot of frustration and woe for everyone involved.

But I reject it completely. Any ideology that is not based on liberty and mutual respect for each other's individual rights can go to Hell.

Fair enough.

Here I thought you had lost your mind Kruetz. You re of course correct the families of those children have every right to hate us and everything we stand for. Our meddling has been exceedingly costly and not just to us. Hubris and foolishness has been our credo for some time now.

However I will fight every step of the way and beyond to keep Sharia law out because of what firemanbob said.

We have meddled in spite of our known morals...they murder and kill in coordination with their moral code. Fools we may have been, but lets not let our kids pay for our politicians stupidity.

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Kreutz wrote: Sucks having your worldview challenged eh? I'm still miffed there's no Santa Claus; don't feel bad.

Not at all. In fact, I didn't realize I was being challenged. I thought we were two people engaged in a friendly debate about a difference of opinion. I just simply choose to stop talking to you about that subject because neither of us were making progress in having the other see their point of view.

Was that not the case?

"We" aren't killing bystanders in Pakistan. Obama is killing them. Never before has the disconnect between the government and the people of the United States been so complete.

mamabearCali wrote:However I will fight every step of the way and beyond to keep Sharia law out because of what firemanbob said.

I have as much a desire to live under Sharia law (or Talmudic or Canon law) as you do. However, I genuinely don't see it happening here.

A near literal flood of Catholics did not turn America into an arm of the Vatican despite the fears of nativists; they just got absorbed after the third generation.

I linked an article elsewhere here about the difficulty mosques are having remaining relevant to assimilated Muslim youth who care more about Ipads than Korans.

We have meddled in spite of our known morals...they murder and kill in coordination with their moral code. Fools we may have been, but lets not let our kids pay for our politicians stupidity.

Oooo, thats a good one.

FiremanBob wrote:"We" aren't killing bystanders in Pakistan. Obama is killing them. Never before has the disconnect between the government and the people of the United States been so complete.

"We" all get blamed for it though.

I think the difference though between Catholics, Judaism and Islam is that neither Catholicism not Judaism is required to subjugate those who are in opposition to them. They are required to debate and attempt to convince, but not rule over those who disagree with them. Islam does require that. So a devout catholic who takes his religion very seriously may try to convert you and will go to mass everyday. However if at the end of the day you say no thanks, they shrug their shoulders and move on. A devout Muslim by his very holy book is not permitted to do that.

Unfortunatly Islam is not a live and let live religion. Especially when it is combined with political Islam. If you think Sharia cannot come to the US.....I have two words for you Dearborne, Michigan.

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All I want? Is to be left alone.

I don't want Sharia Law, I don't want Obamacare, I don't want the NSA to watch my every move, I don't want to be told what to do, say, think, eat, sleep, or watch/read...

Just...leave...me...the...hell...alone.

What part of that do the Progressive/Commies, Far Right Wingers, Muslims, Bloombergers, and such have a problem understanding?

As Conan the Barbarian said "I live, I love, I slay... and I am content."