Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I'm with most in saying it probably wasn't the brightest idea, but we've all done some things that we could look back on and just shake our heads about. At least I hope I'm not the only one.

aznav wrote:
ps. I am new to Virginia, but I can tell you that the state I came from, that would be considered brandishing. Stupid? Yes, but the law.

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I don't see how a good-faith argument could be made that the conduct consituted brandishing.

From m-w.com:
Definition of BRANDISH
1: to shake or wave (as a weapon) menacingly
2: to exhibit in an ostentatious or aggressive manner

I saw the original post over there as i am a member here and there. Out of context is does look bad. I have been asked to see a new pistol before and have done so the way other have described. In the car in cover.

If some local newspaper or other media outlet caught that it would be a definite black eye on us all.

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allingeneral wrote:Did they delete the thread over on the jeepers site? or did they just lock it so that only members can see it?

Yes, it has been removed. I spoke to the owner of the club via PM's about the thread. He was kind enough to remove it at my request.

MarcSpaz wrote:

allingeneral wrote:Did they delete the thread over on the jeepers site? or did they just lock it so that only members can see it?

Yes, it has been removed. I spoke to the owner of the club via PM's about the thread. He was kind enough to remove it at my request.

That was good of him to do. Glad you got it out of there.

I'm sorry but anyone that thinks that showing my weapon to my friends in a public place, assuming I have cleared it, is some how "brandishing it" are out of touch. Sorry but in my opinion it's your pansy ass that is in need of a fix if you see someone with a weapon and you are scared or ashamed of it.

If you were at a friend's home or some other private place I'd probably say no. However, standing in the middle of a parking lot....yeah, that's not exactly the brightest thing I've seen.

It really seems to be a very mixed opinion. I really think there is nothing wrong with it myself, which is why I did it. I think that if you are not doing anything wrong then there is nothing to hide. But as many have also said, there is also the courtesy factor for others that aren't comfortable with firearms and the point that whenever handling a firearm, there is always risk of an accident.

So, that said, with regard to the feedback I received from all of you, I really agree with everyone; both sides of the argument.

Well, Marc, we're a rather mixed (dare I say, possibly even diverse) group of folks. There will be mixed opinion on virtually any topic. And, I suppose the thing to do is to weigh the facts, consider the opinions, and move on from there. Which it looks like you've done.

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Not diverse. Never diverse. I can't stand that word. We're all just folks.

In some parts of the state of country for that matter no one would have batted an eye. However, you were in a very liberal/foreigner heavy area with people who might take your actions wrong. Being cognizant of that fact is part of being a responsible gun owner.
Example:
Putting your feet up and reclining back is perfectly acceptable behavior here but go to some parts of the world and someone might take enough offense as to end it all for you. You obviously freaked someone out enough that they made a post with your picture and what you were doing on the internet. If that happens in private or even in a car, this never happens.

marked8 wrote:In some parts of the state of country for that matter no one would have batted an eye. However, you were in a very liberal/foreigner heavy area with people who might take your actions wrong. Being cognizant of that fact is part of being a responsible gun owner.
Example:
Putting your feet up and reclining back is perfectly acceptable behavior here but go to some parts of the world and someone might take enough offense as to end it all for you. You obviously freaked someone out enough that they made a post with your picture and what you were doing on the internet. If that happens in private or even in a car, this never happens.

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uh-huh. I've been in a few places where uttering the derogatory remarks they posted about MarcSpaz might very well get your killin' done, too. I agree that being considerate of the sensibilities of the community is an important part of responsible gun ownership and that what was done was ill advised. But what frosts my butt about it is that at some point you cross the line bewteen being considerate of the sensibilities of the community and allowing narrow-minded, ignorant people usurp your personal prerogatives and freedoms. The first step is making it impolite; then it is unthinkable; then it is illegal. It is a lot easier to outlaw something that "polite society" has already driven underground.

To be honest, the posts on the other forum bother me more than seeing a guy show another guy a gun would. Would it have been so hard to go up and say, "hey, that's probably not a good idea", and explain why you think so, rather than take pictures and make fun of him? The first option has the benefit of actually doing something about the problem, though, where as the second one just makes him feel important.


So, just like recent gun control suggestions. Doesn't actually do anything, but shows "superiority".

dorminWS wrote:

marked8 wrote:In some parts of the state of country for that matter no one would have batted an eye. However, you were in a very liberal/foreigner heavy area with people who might take your actions wrong. Being cognizant of that fact is part of being a responsible gun owner.
Example:
Putting your feet up and reclining back is perfectly acceptable behavior here but go to some parts of the world and someone might take enough offense as to end it all for you. You obviously freaked someone out enough that they made a post with your picture and what you were doing on the internet. If that happens in private or even in a car, this never happens.

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uh-huh. I've been in a few places where uttering the derogatory remarks they posted about MarcSpaz might very well get your killin' done, too. I agree that being considerate of the sensibilities of the community is an important part of responsible gun ownership and that what was done was ill advised. But what frosts my butt about it is that at some point you cross the line bewteen being considerate of the sensibilities of the community and allowing narrow-minded, ignorant people usurp your personal prerogatives and freedoms. The first step is making it impolite; then it is unthinkable; then it is illegal. It is a lot easier to outlaw something that "polite society" has already driven underground.

I understand the sentiment, but what I said is exactly the reason I would never walk around with a Confederate flag in a housing project in Hampton Roads or PG county.

To me my purpose for having a firearm on my person at nearly all times is for protection, and I choose to do so discretely and not in a "Hey look at me" manner.

Again, just my opinion.

@AIG: lol, I figured I'd yank a chain or two with that statement.

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I agree that the behavior of those young men on the Jeep site that posted and piled on is worse than anything I did in those pictures. But I guess its over. As long as it doesn't continue, I am willing to forgive and forget.

I like this poster... seems appropriate for the situation. I'll have to hold on to this one if I end up in a similar situation some day. I can just post this up.

marked8 wrote:
I understand the sentiment, but what I said is exactly the reason I would never walk around with a Confederate flag in a housing project in Hampton Roads or PG county.

To me my purpose for having a firearm on my person at nearly all times is for protection, and I choose to do so discretely and not in a "Hey look at me" manner.

Again, just my opinion.

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I share your opinion 100%. My sentiment falls on the MYOB side of the ledger.

The world would be such a better place if everyone would just MYOB. (Mind Your Own Business)

But, Dormin, that would relieve all the clucking hens of their purpose in life

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SHMIV wrote:But, Dormin, that would relieve all the clucking hens of their purpose in life

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

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Yup. That's one of the many reasons it will never happen.

I've been meaning to expand on this a bit, so here goes.

Legally
No laws were broken as described. Move along.


Public Impressions
Obviously this varies from location to location. Personally I wish the culture in some locations wasn't so paranoid at the mere sight of a firearm. I wish that large portions of the population hadn't bought into the concept of irrationally blaming an item, rather than using two brain cells to figure out what should be obvious. Just imagine the commotion the next time a young, foreign born male is going to cause when purchasing a pressure cooker! Sheer stupidity.

If I'm OCing and someone calls the police, it's still silly, but at least it's worth the hassle IMHO. Getting the police called on you for showing it to friend is also silly, but not worth the hassle IMHO. Besides, if you still have it in hand you can expect a more aggressive response from the police since they don't know what you are doing of it it's loaded, etc.

You don't have to walk around on tip toes, but just use some discretion. Consider how other perceive your actions.


Gun Etiquette
This is the primary issue IMHO. First, let's discuss briefly what gun etiquette is:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/etiquette

etiquette [ˈɛtɪˌkɛt ˌɛtɪˈkɛt]
n
1. (Sociology) the customs or rules governing behaviour regarded as correct or acceptable in social or official life
2. (Sociology) a conventional but unwritten code of practice followed by members of any of certain professions or groups

The first definition is really covered by the Public Impression above, but the second is what I intend to discuss now. Let's assume for the discussion that you didn't break any of the written rules of gun safety (loaded, finger, barrel, target), yet you still ran afoul of a conventional but unwritten practice about handling firearms.

Most things (particularly dangerous things) or groups have such unwritten rules and their unwritten for a reason. Namely, it's not black and white...although some people will try and make such a rule. Reality isn't so cut and dry so making hard and fast rules doesn't work. Inquire enough of someone who has tried to make a hard and fast rule out of a etiquette and you'll practically always find that what they have really isn't hard and fast at all...it's just as subjective as the etiquette was, but it makes them feel better that they have a rule to follow.

We had one such discussion over alcohol and firearms recently; the reality is that even the glass of water I'm drinking affects my body and judgement, so drawing an arbitrary line at alcohol is an attempt to make a rule out of the general etiquette: don't mess with certain dangerous things while impaired. Am I impaired because I have indigestion? Seasonal allergies or took Benadryl to counter them? Dehydrated? Let's say I've had a beer with dinner and then a threat breaks into my home. Should I not use my HD firearms merely because I've had a beer? Making hard and fast rules don't work for most of life situations, so etiquette, with all of it's vagaries, and personal responsibility/judgement become the "rules."

Another example of this (relevant to your etiquette issue) is the unnecessary (IMHO) handling of loaded firearms in war zones. This is an example of rules being made by those who don't understand the cultural etiquette. Everywhere you go there are clearing barrels because most facilities don't allow loaded firearms in them. So let's get this right, you are required to have a loaded firearm on your person while outside (even within the compound), but step inside a building and suddenly you can't be trusted? Great idea, let's just have everyone handle their loaded firearm at the entrance (you know where there are lots of people) and clear it (obviously reload too). Guess what happens? Mistakes happen and not just into the clearing barrel! Leave the handgun in the holster and treat it like a loaded gun just like you did outside because there is no reason to be handling that loaded firearm. Personally, if you can't trust the person to leave the firearm holstered and secured on their person while inside, perhaps they should have one outside either? Just a thought.*

This is the etiquette you broke and since it's etiquette there is going to be some grey area based on how people interpret things. There is nothing illegal about showing your friend the firearm. Honestly, there shouldn't be a problem with it in public anywhere, but in some places there are problems (use discretion). However, handling a loaded firearm just to show it off is always questionable. I've been asked be some people to show them my Glock and often have refused, even in the privacy of my own home. Sometimes it's just not appropriate due to the people, number of people, purpose of the event, etc., but more generally it's just not necessary. While I don't intent to break any of the written rules, accidents do happen. In general I'd much rather go get a unloaded Glock of the same model from the safe to show than to unload the one I'm carrying.

If that still isn't quite clear, replace Glock/firearm with chainsaw. While there isn't nothing illegal about showing a chainsaw off for your friends and it shouldn't get the police called on you (although people are pretty stupid so it might if you did it in a parking lot), common sense/etiquette say bringing a chainsaw (potentially dangerous) out in a group of people probably isn't the best idea. Furthermore, starting that chainsaw (logically equivalent to unloading/loading a firearm) is even worse of an idea. Depending on the circumstances you might refuse or might take a few people who want to see it aside at an appropriate time and then show the chainsaw off.


Edit: * Obviously storage is different and a good reason to properly unload a firearm. However, at the entrance probably isn't the best location and that's not the intent of the rule.