Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

The last two posts pretty well frame the argument on gun safety and youngsters, I guess. I also grew up in a culture where people hunted and used and handled guns as a matter of course. As a kid, gun safety was drummed into my soft little head from the time I was allowed to hang around the menfolk. Safe gunhandling was almost a religion with these folks. There was a LOT of indoctrination and demonstration about what kind of damage a firearm did; not least the deer and other game that were shot and field dressed. Safety enforcement in this bunch was downright draconian. You'd get told. If you screwed up, you'd get your @ss handed to you by every grownup in the crowd (even if you WERE a grownup). If you screwed up the second time, you'd get sent home forever and ostracized as a complete dumb@ss. You were not and would never be a whole man. It was very effective, in my experience. Seems like the most ardent practicioners of this were the WWII and Korean combat vetrans. I guess they must have never wanted to see people shot again.

Now it worries me very much that kids spend half their lives playing video games where they spray bullets at bad guys like they were squirting a water hose, and everybody/thing that gets shot gets up out of the pool of blood and guts in 10 seconds or so and gets back in the game. Seems to me that must foster too casual an attitude towards pointing a gun and pulling the trigger.

All that being said, I can't decide exactly what I think about the safety bullet. I suppose where I come down is, it might be right for some folks, but I don't think it's right for me.

justsumstuff wrote:Where I used to live the dad did the same thing with his boys. But, that impulse thing got the best of one son, along with the peer pressure.
Short story, about 4 teens took a gun outside & the son that knew all the safety rules pointed the muzzle, pulled the trigger & the other teen died right there, from a chest wound. And yes, he knew what it would do, he had been deer hunting, bird hunting, etc. & one parent was a shrink so "he knew what he was doing".

All the studies say that peer approval means more than parental teaching at that age.

I trusted my kids too, just not around their friends with available loaded guns. Too many hormones and teen issues flying around.

What you discribe is murder and no safety bullet is going to stop that. At that age the son is more than capable if acquiring a firearm at school (I had a roommate that acquired a Glock at the age of 10 and he was from the afflucient neighborhood) or elsewhere. There's a good chance they have plenty of time to guess the combo too. The point is that once a child has that level of cabability a product like the safety bullet is useless. It's probably not an accident when they shoot someone.

gunderwood wrote:

justsumstuff wrote:Where I used to live the dad did the same thing with his boys. But, that impulse thing got the best of one son, along with the peer pressure.
Short story, about 4 teens took a gun outside & the son that knew all the safety rules pointed the muzzle, pulled the trigger & the other teen died right there, from a chest wound. And yes, he knew what it would do, he had been deer hunting, bird hunting, etc. & one parent was a shrink so "he knew what he was doing".

All the studies say that peer approval means more than parental teaching at that age.

I trusted my kids too, just not around their friends with available loaded guns. Too many hormones and teen issues flying around.

What you discribe is murder and no safety bullet is going to stop that. At that age the son is more than capable if acquiring a firearm at school (I had a roommate that acquired a Glock at the age of 10 and he was from the afflucient neighborhood) or elsewhere. There's a good chance they have plenty of time to guess the combo too. The point is that once a child has that level of cabability a product like the safety bullet is useless. It's probably not an accident when they shoot someone.

Raise your children to not conform to peer pressure. Don't tell me it's not possible because I never have or will care to peer pressure myself. You've got other things to worry about other than guns, you can't just lock up everything.

justsumstuff wrote:Where I used to live the dad did the same thing with his boys. But, that impulse thing got the best of one son, along with the peer pressure.
Short story, about 4 teens took a gun outside & the son that knew all the safety rules pointed the muzzle, pulled the trigger & the other teen died right there, from a chest wound. And yes, he knew what it would do, he had been deer hunting, bird hunting, etc. & one parent was a shrink so "he knew what he was doing".

All the studies say that peer approval means more than parental teaching at that age.

I trusted my kids too, just not around their friends with available loaded guns. Too many hormones and teen issues flying around.

I'd say that, in that particular scenario, there was much more going on than peer pressure. When a teenager points a loaded gun at his friends chest and pulls the trigger, he knows the outcome. One doesn't make a decision like that just to avoid being called a wuss. If he'd shot the other kid in the foot, or stabbed him in the leg, or chucked a dart at him, I might buy it. But a chest shot? No, there is more to the story.

gunderwood wrote:What you discribe is murder and no safety bullet is going to stop that.

This. Murder isn't "peer pressure".

Diomed wrote:

gunderwood wrote:What you discribe is murder and no safety bullet is going to stop that.

This. Murder isn't "peer pressure".

To put it simply

The kid thought the gun was unloaded. He was with friends & didn't do the normal through safety checks, and follow the safety rules.
IMHO, This is why teenagers as a "gang" should not be trusted to follow the rules. Gun rules, boundary rules, etc.

"I dare you"

And this would have been prevented with a Safety Bullet instead of an unloaded firearm just how?

justsumstuff wrote:The kid thought the gun was unloaded. He was with friends & didn't do the normal through safety checks, and follow the safety rules.
IMHO, This is why teenagers as a "gang" should not be trusted to follow the rules. Gun rules, boundary rules, etc.

"I dare you"

Did his lawyer tell him to say that, because I'm calling BS? There is no reasonable excuse, even peer pressure, for someone to ever of his age point a gun at someone's chest and pull the trigger, unloaded or otherwise. A young kid who doesn't understand the difference between his water gun, snap gun, etc. and a real gun sure, it happens on occasion and it's all the more reason for training. Peer pressure for a teenager to look at it, play with it, perhaps even shoot it at stuff, but to point it at someone's chest and shoot them "accidentally?" Not a chance.

Accidents happen to even adults when they play around with dangerous items, but to point a gun at someone's chest and to pull the trigger is no accident.

hatchetman wrote:And this would have been prevented with a Safety Bullet instead of an unloaded firearm just how?

This was in reply to the post about his son is 13 & dad trusts son with gun handling around his peers.

No, it would have been prevented if dad had not trust a 14 year old boy at home after school by himself, hanging out with friends. Parents/people are wrong to think that they never made a mistake themselves. I believe that the guns should have been locked up & the kids should not have access with out parental supervision, period.

I'm glad all of you were 14 years old and you never did anything that you didn't think through or regret later.

Again, IMHO Teenagers should never be around peers & guns without parental supervision.

Got it. A thread hijack, one where you get on your high horse should someone return to the topic at hand.

For the record I'm not a fan of casual gun handling by kids, though I think pointing a firearm at someone and pulling the trigger is far more than a youthful indiscretion. And this sidetrack does nothing to change my opinion regarding the silly product being discussed in this thread.

justsumstuff wrote:

hatchetman wrote:And this would have been prevented with a Safety Bullet instead of an unloaded firearm just how?

This was in reply to the post about his son is 13 & dad trusts son with gun handling around his peers.

No, it would have been prevented if dad had not trust a 14 year old boy at home after school by himself, hanging out with friends. Parents/people are wrong to think that they never made a mistake themselves. I believe that the guns should have been locked up & the kids should not have access with out parental supervision, period.

I'm glad all of you were 14 years old and you never did anything that you didn't think through or regret later.

Again, IMHO Teenagers should never be around peers & guns without parental supervision.

Interesting that until recently whole generations, often younger than that, took their guns to school, went hunting, etc. all without adult supervision. Don't seem to recall the epidemic of child/mass shootings either.

There is no age at which one becomes responsible. It's a myth and one we perpetuate by attempting to codify into law age limits for certain activities. All hail the nanny state!

[/quote]
Interesting that until recently whole generations, often younger than that, took their guns to school, went hunting, etc. all without adult supervision. Don't seem to recall the epidemic of child/mass shootings either.

There is no age at which one becomes responsible. It's a myth and one we perpetuate by attempting to codify into law age limits for certain activities. All hail the nanny state![/quote]

I agree! I believe that Politically correct has made us less independent in a lot of ways. Hmmm PC is peer pressure?
But, you say no adult supervision, I'm not sure about that. I & quite a number of people could not do anything that my mom didn't know before I got home. Did a lot to keep me straight.

justsumstuff wrote:

Interesting that until recently whole generations, often younger than that, took their guns to school, went hunting, etc. all without adult supervision. Don't seem to recall the epidemic of child/mass shootings either.

There is no age at which one becomes responsible. It's a myth and one we perpetuate by attempting to codify into law age limits for certain activities. All hail the nanny state![/quote]

I agree! I believe that Politically correct has made us less independent in a lot of ways. Hmmm PC is peer pressure?
But, you say no adult supervision, I'm not sure about that. I & quite a number of people could not do anything that my mom didn't know before I got home. Did a lot to keep me straight.[/quote]
My father-in-law is such a case. In fact, he was given a rifle/shotgun and told to get get dinner even at a young age. That didn't mean he couldn't be foolish, as even adults can be, but rather that his training and trust were sufficient to do those activities on his own.

I've heard of many such cases.

all the kid would have to do is rack the slide and it would fall out as long as he dont pull the trigger.

It would be a good training aid for jams at the range.

When I was in high school, in the mid 90's, the kids still brought their guns to school during hunting season. They would normally go hunting in the morning before school. There were a great many fights in the halls of that school building, but no one ever went out to retrieve their gun. Students didn't hunt each other after school, either.

When I was 13, if not a year younger, I would watch my sisters during the night while my mother was waiting tables and my father was driving a cab. One evening, we had some shady characters hovering in the yard. The only time I've ever pointed a gun at anyone was when I demanded that they leave my yard. It worked; they left, and they never came near my house again.

As far as it goes with my own 13 year old, well, I was trusted at 13, as was my father, my grandfather, and on up the line.

Back to the original topic of the "safety bullet"... My opinion has not changed.

Seems like a band-aid for irresponsible or lazy gun owners. Don't want kids messing with your guns, lock them up. There are plenty of quick access pistol vaults out there, some with biometrics for fast access. I trust my daughter, shes a shooter too, but I do not trust other children that may come over.

I for one am not going to remember to rack the slide twice. This goes against all the training I have subjected myself through for the past 20 years. I am not going to trust a device that is designed soley to jam my firearm, especially when I may need it, in the middle of the night, or at a moments notice.