I'm sorry but I must tell the truth....

[Yarddawg]

To use the excuse that the two current parties have been in control for so long that you cannot beat them is ridiculous! By following that logic, we would still be under England's rule AND never would have left Europe!

How do you think change happens? People finally become fed up with the current state of affairs, and do what they have to in order to effect change!

The Republican party knows that the majority of American's are fed up with the empty promise of hope and change. Yet if the party is stupid enough to nominate another RINO, simply because they have served their time, all I can say is "Stupid Should Be Painful"!

The Republican party is banking on people having the defeatist attitude that a third party is not viable. They should have learned their lesson from the 2008 election!

[mamabearCali]

As far as 3rd party candidates go---they are never viable they have not worked ever in this country. Soooo if we want something done it would be a much better plan to reform a political party from the inside out. That is what I see the tea party doing to the GOP--making them accountable to their constituents at a higher level and holding them to what they said they would do. That is probably the best plan and I think it might just might be working.

[Yarddawg]

As far as 3rd party candidates go---they are never viable they have not worked ever in this country. Soooo if we want something done it would be a much better plan to reform a political party from the inside out. That is what I see the tea party doing to the GOP--making them accountable to their constituents at a higher level and holding them to what they said they would do. That is probably the best plan and I think it might just might be working.

There are quite a few dead presidents that would have to disagree with you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pr ... ffiliation

[mamabearCali]

Sure there have been different parties, but there has always been two major parties (Federalists/Anti-Federalists, Whigs/Jeffersonian Democrats, etc) and nearly every time one of the two major parties has won. In this country we have had Dem vs Rep for 150 years--changing that at this time is extremely unlikely to say the least.

The elephants and the donkeys are entrenched and if you want change in a meaningful way in time to stop the socialists (who co-oped the democrat party) then you have to work with what we have. The republicans are a viable solution, they in their platform are not bad at all, could use a little tweaking here and there but by and large it is not a socialist platform and it is for some amount of fiscal responsibility. Our problem is not the elephants it is RHINO's that act like democrats but call themselves republicans thus muddling what republican vs democrat is.

Wishful thinking for a third party will give us Obama and 4 more years of socialist policy here---can't chance that.

[Yarddawg]

Agreed, which is why I posted earlier about another RINO getting the nod from the party. If they are gonna be stupid, they had better be tough!

[SHMIV]

Sure there have been different parties, but there has always been two major parties (Federalists/Anti-Federalists, Whigs/Jeffersonian Democrats, etc) and nearly every time one of the two major parties has won. In this country we have had Dem vs Rep for 150 years--changing that at this time is extremely unlikely to say the least.

The elephants and the donkeys are entrenched and if you want change in a meaningful way in time to stop the socialists (who co-oped the democrat party) then you have to work with what we have. The republicans are a viable solution, they in their platform are not bad at all, could use a little tweaking here and there but by and large it is not a socialist platform and it is for some amount of fiscal responsibility. Our problem is not the elephants it is RHINO's that act like democrats but call themselves republicans thus muddling what republican vs democrat is.

Wishful thinking for a third party will give us Obama and 4 more years of socialist policy here---can't chance that.

Which is pretty much what I've been saying....

[Reverenddel]

As I stated earlier, the way to do it, is to have the LIBERTARIANS get into EACH of the two parties, and cause as much havoc as possible, and put forth viable candidates that work for those they're representing... not themselves.

[SHMIV]

As I stated earlier, the way to do it, is to have the LIBERTARIANS get into EACH of the two parties, and cause as much havoc as possible, and put forth viable candidates that work for those they're representing... not themselves.

Not a bad idea. However, at this point, the Republican party is far more salvageable. The Socialists have pretty deep roots in the Democrat party. Sadly, we are seeing evidence of them spreading in to the Republicans, too.

Not only have they completely taken over the Democrat party, they have also taken over the major media outlets and the school systems from kindergarten all the way through college.

This is why I made the point of having to change the culture back a few posts ago. Taking over a political party won't be enough. We need Conservatives or Libertarians in our schools, in the entertainment industry, and in the news outlets. We need them in the upper levels of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts.

Until we can reclaim our culture, it will be a long, painful, and losing battle.

[dorminWS]

In my view, a vote for a third-party or a failure to vote is little different from a vote for Obama. Heck, it's exactily what he wants folks like us to do; because he knows he couldn't get our vote if he ran unopposed.

What counts is results. If we dick around and refuse to vote for a non-libertarian or vote a 3rd-party candidate and that damned socialist gets another term, uncalculable damage will be done just in judicial appointments and federal agency administrative actions that he controls.

If you were to cut off your hand to keep from shaking hands with somebody you don't like and don't agree with, you'd be very dissatisfied with your choice when you realized you were now obliged to use the same hand for pickin' your nose that you use for ...umm...er.... excretory hygiene. I hope that rather earthy but very appropriate metaphor brings home the point how counterproductive it would be for all or any of us arch-conservatives/libertarians to waste our chance to vote against Obama in the making of a dramatic statement by protest voting for an unelectable candidate or by not voting.

So don't cut off your hand. Use it to give Obama and his ilk the finger by voting against 4 more years of socialism and gun-grabbing.

[gunderwood]

Again, the answer is not to create a new party, but take the Republican party back.

I was one of only ~1k who voted in the last primary...

In my view, a vote for a third-party or a failure to vote is little different from a vote for Obama...What counts is results. If we dick around and refuse to vote for a non-libertarian or vote a 3rd-party candidate and that damned socialist gets another term, uncalculable damage will be done just in judicial appointments and federal agency administrative actions that he controls.

And what you are missing is the incalculable damage to the cause if another RINO gets your vote. Yes, it will damage the country a bit less than Obama would, but it would damage the cause and the average person would be right in concluding that there isn't one bit of difference between us and them. Liberty keeps getting a bad reputation because of people voting for the lesser of two evils under the guise of "liberty" and tarnishing it with semi-socialistic compromises. We've tried both R and D socialism, it's failed miserably. It's high time we actually presented something different; real change based on liberty, rather than half baked statist ideas.

Statism and liberty are like oil and water, they don't mix. A belief in an individuals Right to self actuation and responsibility are contrary to the idea that the state/society own him. Offering up statism-lite BS and calling it "liberty" is a sure fire way to loose in the long run. It only retards the degradation a small amount, but it incorrectly associates the failed ideas of statism with liberty...which in the long run does far more damage than even 4 more years of Obama could ever do.

E.g. the dirtiness of what passes as Capitalism in this country. It's an uphill battle just to illustrate that the failed ideas called "capitalism" by statist-lite was actually nothing of the sort.

[dorminWS]

Gunderwood, you're stating to scare me a little.

Have you got somebody to follow you around and wipe the spit off'n yore chin once in a while?

[jihgwt]

I agree Ron Paul would not win. But I hope MANY of his Ideas Influence the Conservative platform debate

[gunderwood]

Gunderwood, you're stating to scare me a little.

Have you got somebody to follow you around and wipe the spit off'n yore chin once in a while?

I guess you concede the point since you resort to ad hominem attacks?

Stick to the argument. Obama will do incalculable damage to the US. However, a RINO will do a bit less, but will also do immense damage to the ideas. I even gave you examples. I await a reasonable reply rather than a personal attack.

[SHMIV]

Stick to the argument. Obama will do incalculable damage to the US. However, a RINO will do a bit less, but will also do immense damage to the ideas. I even gave you examples. I await a reasonable reply rather than a personal attack.

As you pointed out, a precious few people turned out for the primaries. This means that a "Rino" will probably get the nomination.

Judging from the data supplied on Real Clear Politics, though, (pertaining to percentage of votes cast in favor of someone who was neither Republican nor Democrat in past presidential elections) and judging from the historical tradition since 1853 or so, I'd have to conclude that voting outside of the parties would only serve to keep Obama in office, if it had any effect at all.

This election, let's focus on getting Obama out of office. Then let's spend the next four years getting a lot more involved than just simply casting votes and engaging in internet debates. (Although, I must say, the debates are so civil here... it's nice to debate with adults, for once.) Once again, I will point out that it is necessary to change the culture before any real change in politics is going to happen.

[dorminWS]

Gunderwood, you're stating to scare me a little.

Have you got somebody to follow you around and wipe the spit off'n yore chin once in a while?

I guess you concede the point since you resort to ad hominem attacks?

Stick to the argument. Obama will do incalculable damage to the US. However, a RINO will do a bit less, but will also do immense damage to the ideas. I even gave you examples. I await a reasonable reply rather than a personal attack.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, Bullcookies, Gunderwood! That WAS NOT an ad hominem attack. I was joking with you. If you really thought that, or if it was presumptuous of me to joke with you, I apologize. Let me try to avoid your hair trigger and make my point in a more literal way: Minimizing the damage is exactly what we must do, because the country has already been moved WAY too far to the left. and this guy will do all he can to take us so far we can't get back. Taking a moral/philosophical/ideological stand is all very well, but if you say, "my way or nothing" you will unfortunately always wind up with nothing because you are unwilling to compromise. Has compromise gone WAY too far in the past? You damn better believe it. But you still can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (and I am NOT attacking babies, here, OK?) 4 more years of Obama will NOT serve our common cause. It is in our interest to act to avoid that. We should save symbolism and dramatic acts for a time when there is less at stake. The distressing thing about all those folks who support the left because of the free ride it promises is that THEY know how to always vote in their own best interest. We conservatives would do well to hold our noses and do likewise in November. That said, I readily acknowledge that it is your vote to do with as you like.

[Kreutz]

This election, let's focus on getting Obama out of office. Then let's spend the next four years getting a lot more involved than just simply casting votes and engaging in internet debates. (Although, I must say, the debates are so civil here... it's nice to debate with adults, for once.) Once again, I will point out that it is necessary to change the culture before any real change in politics is going to happen.

Thing is incumbents never have to participate in primaries; so if you get your RINO now; he's the candidate for the next go too. So you're really tying your wagon to the RINO for 8 years if he wins his second term, four if he gets beat by the Democrat in the 2016 election.

4 more years of Obama will NOT serve our common cause. It is in our interest to act to avoid that. We should save symbolism and dramatic acts for a time when there is less at stake. The distressing thing about all those folks who support the left because of the free ride it promises is that THEY know how to always vote in their own best interest. We conservatives would do well to hold our noses and do likewise in November. That said, I readily acknowledge that it is your vote to do with as you like.

Noticing a trend here, ya'all think Obama is the worst thing ever, a symptom of a rapidly decaying nation just giving up to the evil of socialism. If that's really how you feel, if you really think its that bad, that far gone, why are you trying to "minimize" damage? Isn't that like rearranging the furniture in a house that was abandoned ages ago and is now a warped rotten shell useless to anyone?

Isn't it better to just push it over and rebuild to better suit you?

You conservatives always lose because we take a foot and you fight to the death for an inch. By your very nature you are reactionaries; not revolutionaries.

[gunderwood]

This election, let's focus on getting Obama out of office. Then let's spend the next four years getting a lot more involved than just simply casting votes and engaging in internet debates. (Although, I must say, the debates are so civil here... it's nice to debate with adults, for once.) Once again, I will point out that it is necessary to change the culture before any real change in politics is going to happen.

This sounds like the crisis politics Obama and his followers push. Obama is a problem, but let's not toss principle out the window just to get him out of office...we can end up with someone worse!

[gunderwood]

Gunderwood, you're stating to scare me a little.

Have you got somebody to follow you around and wipe the spit off'n yore chin once in a while?

I guess you concede the point since you resort to ad hominem attacks?

Stick to the argument. Obama will do incalculable damage to the US. However, a RINO will do a bit less, but will also do immense damage to the ideas. I even gave you examples. I await a reasonable reply rather than a personal attack.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Oh, Bullcookies, Gunderwood! That WAS NOT an ad hominem attack. I was joking with you. If you really thought that, or if it was presumptuous of me to joke with you, I apologize. Let me try to avoid your hair trigger and make my point in a more literal way: Minimizing the damage is exactly what we must do, because the country has already been moved WAY too far to the left. and this guy will do all he can to take us so far we can't get back. Taking a moral/philosophical/ideological stand is all very well, but if you say, "my way or nothing" you will unfortunately always wind up with nothing because you are unwilling to compromise. Has compromise gone WAY too far in the past? You damn better believe it. But you still can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. (and I am NOT attacking babies, here, OK?) 4 more years of Obama will NOT serve our common cause. It is in our interest to act to avoid that. We should save symbolism and dramatic acts for a time when there is less at stake. The distressing thing about all those folks who support the left because of the free ride it promises is that THEY know how to always vote in their own best interest. We conservatives would do well to hold our noses and do likewise in November. That said, I readily acknowledge that it is your vote to do with as you like.

That thinking got us here in the first place as it's been the rationale for voting for every GOP candidate since Reagan.

[gunderwood]

Thing is incumbents never have to participate in primaries; so if you get your RINO now; he's the candidate for the next go too. So you're really tying your wagon to the RINO for 8 years if he wins his second term, four if he gets beat by the Democrat in the 2016 election.

I was going to point this out, but since you already did I expand on it a bit.

Hitching ourselves to a RINO for 4 or worse still, 8 years is very likely to just set up the next big socialist Democrat victory. If we can't get a real candidate this go around given how disastrous Obama has been, we aren't getting one any time soon. Seriously, we can just about run anyone and win so long as they have a clear and attributable course which differentiates itself from more of the same failed Obama policies. A smooth talker like Obama didn't even have to do that given how fed up the populous was with Bush!

4 more years of Obama will NOT serve our common cause. It is in our interest to act to avoid that. We should save symbolism and dramatic acts for a time when there is less at stake. The distressing thing about all those folks who support the left because of the free ride it promises is that THEY know how to always vote in their own best interest. We conservatives would do well to hold our noses and do likewise in November. That said, I readily acknowledge that it is your vote to do with as you like.

Noticing a trend here, ya'all think Obama is the worst thing ever, a symptom of a rapidly decaying nation just giving up to the evil of socialism. If that's really how you feel, if you really think its that bad, that far gone, why are you trying to "minimize" damage? Isn't that like rearranging the furniture in a house that was abandoned ages ago and is now a warped rotten shell useless to anyone?

Isn't it better to just push it over and rebuild to better suit you?

You conservatives always lose because we take a foot and you fight to the death for an inch. By your very nature you are reactionaries; not revolutionaries.

+1

Is it irony that our "pet" socialist knows our problem better than us?

[Kreutz]

Is it irony that our "pet" socialist knows our problem better than us?

Fresh eyes and a perspective from the outside looking in as opposed to the groupthink when we surround ourselves with only like minded people can show us all vantages we never consider.

All conservatism is based upon the idea that if you leave things alone you leave them as they are. But you do not. If you leave a thing alone you leave it to a torrent of change.


Gilbert K. Chesterton