What would you do?

[bryanrheem]

Unfortunately, you can not read the minds of the BGs to know what they are intending to do. Sometimes, their actions and words can help you interpret their intentions, but you would never really know.

What if they are acting tough, want money and are never intending to hurt anybody? You draw your gun and all of a sudden the situation escalates to where it was never going to go and shots are fired.

Or the flip side, things look like it's just a robbery but one of the BGs is a looney and just plain shoots somebody?

In the end, you would never know. I don't know what I would do in that situation, but I do know that if you're going to escalate, you better make it count.

[Kreutz]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

I hope he did. A few kicks to me (or to your wife) might however cost you and your wife the life of your 4th child and possibly (if there is placental abruption) the life of your wife as well. Just want to point out that even one punch to the head or one kick to the abdomen is all it can take sometimes to be fatal. Just because you think you could take a few hits does not mean everyone could.

Ah, you said, "They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave."

Absolutely different from your response, now they've apparently moved on to a pregnant woman that wasn't there a second ago. Lethal force would be justifiable, and I'm fortunate my head CA is my neighbor.

[wylde007]

What if they are acting tough, want money and are never intending to hurt anybody? You draw your gun and all of a sudden the situation escalates to where it was never going to go and shots are fired.

How they are acting and what they want are immaterial to the argument. If they are affecting a robbery under threat of violence (evidenced by a weapon displayed) then their motives are clear-cut enough.

[mamabearCali]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

I hope he did. A few kicks to me (or to your wife) might however cost you and your wife the life of your 4th child and possibly (if there is placental abruption) the life of your wife as well. Just want to point out that even one punch to the head or one kick to the abdomen is all it can take sometimes to be fatal. Just because you think you could take a few hits does not mean everyone could.

Ah, you said, "They wave guns at everyone! Beat up a guy because he tries to tell the babies everything will be ok. They leave."

Absolutely different from your response, now they've apparently moved on to a pregnant woman that wasn't there a second ago. Lethal force would be justifiable, and I'm fortunate my head CA is my neighbor.

What I meant to point out is that probably the kicking of the guy from that guy's perspective would justify lethal force. After all who knows if they are going to stop kicking him. Now in this case they did, but I have heard of other cases where the perps kicks a man to death. Just saying in the moment you don't know if they are going to stop or not until they do.

[gunderwood]

People die from less than two hits all the time...

Yes, but the problem is I don't know what they are going to do when they start. Kreutz is making a decision based on ad hoc information. How do I know they are just going to kick me a few times? I don't. How do I know they aren't going to kick me and then shoot me in the head while I'm down? Again, I don't. Simple put, once they threaten my life (pointing a gun at me counts), first chance I get I'm going to stop the threat.

While I don't care about things like CCs, I do care about my DL because of the address. Criminals who break into places with guns are people I don't want knowing where I live...particularly if I just rolled over to their demands in said hair salon. It significantly reduces the threat level to the criminal when they know that you'll just give in. It's the negation of carry, open or concealed, reducing crime because any potential victim just might fight back with their own gun.

I'm not going to wait to find out if they brought the guns for intimidation only or to kill everyone. They made the threat and they have the capability, simple as that.

[gunderwood]

What if they are acting tough, want money and are never intending to hurt anybody? You draw your gun and all of a sudden the situation escalates to where it was never going to go and shots are fired.

How they are acting and what they want are immaterial to the argument. If they are affecting a robbery under threat of violence (evidenced by a weapon displayed) then their motives are clear-cut enough.

+1

[davasmith]

Yeah I know, "imminent" it was awfully hot out there today. Great answer Wylde. I couldn't agree more.

[Reverenddel]

Better than lying in a fetal position, screamin' like a wussy, saying "PWEASE NO HURT ME MISTAH BAADD MAN!"

[wylde007]

I'm not going to wait to find out if they brought the guns for intimidation only or to kill everyone. They made the threat and they have the capability, simple as that.

Eggzachary.

[bryanrheem]

What if they are acting tough, want money and are never intending to hurt anybody? You draw your gun and all of a sudden the situation escalates to where it was never going to go and shots are fired.

How they are acting and what they want are immaterial to the argument. If they are affecting a robbery under threat of violence (evidenced by a weapon displayed) then their motives are clear-cut enough.

Good point... even if they are as polite as Brad Pitt (Thelma & Louise), he still said you would have a tag on your toe.

[justsumstuff]

Richmond Store owner grateful for man who
shot robber
By Reed Williams
Published: July 15, 2009
» 52 Comments | Post a Comment
vote
now
Three days after Mustapha Kassou was shot in an attempted robbery in his store in South Richmond,
he said that he owed his life to the man who ended the ordeal by shooting the robber.
Yesterday, Kassou returned to Golden Food Market on Jefferson Davis Highway for the first time
since he was shot there Saturday afternoon.
Kassou said the masked robber walked into the store shortly after 1 p.m. and seemed startled to see
about eight people inside. The robber told everyone to get on the floor, and then he fired at Kassou
and hit him twice, he said.
"When the guy shot me, I was waiting for him to finish me," Kassou said. "I was knocked down
behind the cash register."
The other armed man pulled a six-shot revolver from his holster and told the robber to drop his
weapon, Kassou said. When he didn't, authorities say, the man shot the robber once in the torso, took
the robber's gun and called police.
Witnesses told police it appeared the robber ran out of bullets and tried to reload. Some people in the
store told the man to finish off the robber, witnesses reported.
"Everyone was telling him to kill him," Kassou said, "but he said, 'I can't do it.'"
Saturday's incident was the second such shooting at the store in a month.
The two shootings at Golden Food and the fatal shooting of a shopkeeper last month in another store
just blocks away have alarmed some nearby residents, although police say the number of violent
crimes along the Jefferson Davis corridor has been declining since May.
Richmond Store owner grateful for man who shot robber | Richmond Times-Dispatch Page 1 of 5
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/ ... 714-222605... 11/20/2009

[zephyp]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

What they do or who they kick or hit or whatever is completely and totally irrelevant...the simple fact that they are brandishing and waving guns gives you the right here in VA to shoot them dead...bet me that I wouldn't...

[m4a1mustang]

Have you guys seen the Waffle House robbery video from Texas? How many people here would be willing to take on 3 armed robbers that just got the drop on you? That's a tough one.

[zephyp]

If they got the drop on you then you need to play it cool...in a situation with multiple guns I simply probably wouldnt draw unless I either knew it was game over anyway or I could get most or all...hard choices on that one...depends on alot of things...how far away are they...how distracted...how excited...how bad did you mess yourself...lots to think about and no time...

[Kreutz]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

What they do or who they kick or hit or whatever is completely and totally irrelevant...the simple fact that they are brandishing and waving guns gives you the right here in VA to shoot them dead...bet me that I wouldn't...

Can you give me the statute that says so? Its my understanding I cannot, which is why many people are pushing hard for Castle Law in VA.

[Yarddawg]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

What they do or who they kick or hit or whatever is completely and totally irrelevant...the simple fact that they are brandishing and waving guns gives you the right here in VA to shoot them dead...bet me that I wouldn't...

Can you give me the statute that says so? Its my understanding I cannot, which is why many people are pushing hard for Castle Law in VA.

"Justifiable homicide in self-defense occurs [when] a person, without any fault on his part in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, kills another under reasonable apprehension of death or great bodily harm to himself. "Smith, 17 Va. App. at 71, 435 S.E.2d at 416

http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

[tursiops]

Can you give me the statute that says so? Its my understanding I cannot, which is why many people are pushing hard for Castle Law in VA.

"Justifiable homicide in self-defense occurs [when] a person, without any fault on his part in provoking or bringing on the difficulty, kills another under reasonable apprehension of death or great bodily harm to himself. "Smith, 17 Va. App. at 71, 435 S.E.2d at 416

http://www.virginia1774.org/Page5.html

That's not a statute; that's case law. We'd all prefer a statute for Castle Law.

Also, the quote given refers to "bodily harm to himself." It would not apply to stopping harm to someone else, I suppose.

[mamabearCali]

I would argue that in this case you would be (if you aren't what in heavens would you be afraid of) in reasonable apprehension of death or great bodily harm to yourself. We need a castle doctrine, but we will have to get rid of some legislators to even have a chance of getting it through.

[grumpyMSG]

In a case like you are describing, it is all about how the investigating LEO and Commonwealth's Attorney choose to react to your actions. In my area, they probably would question the witnesses and as long as excessive force was not used in your actions. no charges would be filed. Using the Richmond case posted byjustsomestuff as an example, no charges would have been filed with a similar reaction. If after shooting and disabling the individual, you walked up and shot him again (like it seems was being encouraged in that case), you would probably be charged with at least Manslaughter and probably murder.

[zephyp]

As for the guy they "beat up and leave", I don't think a few kicks justifies shooting them, he will recover.

What they do or who they kick or hit or whatever is completely and totally irrelevant...the simple fact that they are brandishing and waving guns gives you the right here in VA to shoot them dead...bet me that I wouldn't...

Can you give me the statute that says so? Its my understanding I cannot, which is why many people are pushing hard for Castle Law in VA.

Unfortunately and mainly due to idiots here in VA on both sides of gun issues we dont have any specific statutes...castle doctrine would be a great example. The bottom line in VA is if you didnt start it and you feel an imminent threat to your life then you are justified to shoot. This where thought comes in and you have to assess the situation before you shoot. The problem with having this spelled out in a statute is it would be virtually impossible to second guess every situation. you could make some generalizations and some states have. This is where castle doctrine comes into play.

I will say this...if you are in a situation like the one described above with multiple gunmen and they are standing there facing you waving guns then IMHO you have a moral obligation to make the best attempt to protect yourself and others present. Otherwise why even bother to carry a gun. And, the fact that they kicked someone has no bearing other than to reinforce they are violent. The waving and brandishing of guns is the key issue and the one that would stand up in court.