"Obamacare" is Constutional in First Court Ruling

[Kreutz]

Being given the choice between buying health insurance and not being a burden or paying a small fine seems positively benign, I don't understand the uproar; its really just one more law.

The uproar is being FORCED by the federal government to either buy health insurance or pay a fine...its kinda like me holding a gun on you for money...watch the gun or pay me money...either way its extortion by the government.

The big problem is this -- if they get away with this then what is next and where does it stop...

Again, I am FORCED by the FedGov to pay into fed income tax, medicare and social security or face fines and prison, how is this any different?

Medicare is like 45 years old, social security 70 something years old; we all seem to have survived.

I just find it very interesting there was no uproar over the mandate when it was a republican idea-which it was originally.

[Kreutz]

Yes, I do, but I did not always have it. I see how the post office runs

The PO is awesome, will UPS or FedEx mail your letter for 44 cents? Its completely self-funding too.

and the DMV

State, not federal.

and God forbid one time I had to have my name changed on my SS card, that social security office was a nightmare from the pits of hell.

I went with my wife to change hers after we got married, we were in and out in about 15 minutes, we took a number, waited, were served, and left. You probably didnt bring what the website clearly stated you'd need to bring.

So I want the government to have as little to do as possible with my health care and how I acquire it.

Its funny because CMS has indirectly run helathcare since it introduced DRG's i nthe 1980's-which incidentally increased efficiency and reduced fraud drastically.

ALL INSURERS copy whatever CMS does, as we say in the business, "As Medicare goes, so we all go".

We have been told already that my health insurance premiums will go up dramatically (or we will have to reduce our coverage) when Obamacare hits the fan. So no matter how you slice it we will always be paying for those who refuse to pay, just with the government version we get to pay more FUN!

You were also told the death panels were gonna shoot Grandma because she needs a new hip. Can't believe everything we are told now can we?


Govt healthcare sucks,lets see what the Palin, original architect of the death panels has to say about it:

Code: Select all

“My first five years of life we spent in Skagway, Alaska, right there by Whitehorse,” Palin said during a speech in Calgary on Saturday. “Believe it or not — this was in the ‘60s — we used to hustle on over the border for health care that we would receive in Whitehorse. I remember my brother, he burned his ankle in some little kid accident thing and my parents had to put him on a train and rush him over to Whitehorse and I think, isn’t that kind of ironic now. Zooming over the border, getting health care from Canada."

Read more: http://www.canada.com/news/Sarah+Palin+Canadian+health+care+link+critics+sick/2661120/story.html#ixzz1R9h19NaT

[mamabearCali]

The PO is awesome, will UPS or FedEx mail your letter for 44 cents? Its completely self-funding too. [/quote]

It is so AWESOME that every time I have to mail a package I sit in a line for 45 min to an hour. Financially the post office is constantly in the red.

DMV--State, not federal.

perhaps but it is an example of a government run institution that is such a joy to do business with

I went with my wife to change hers after we got married, we were in and out in about 15 minutes, we took a number, waited, were served, and left. You probably didnt bring what the website clearly stated you'd need to bring.

You are incorrect I had all my paperwork. What made it a horror was the tiny room with a security guard that yelled at me for my kids talking and playing cars on the chair (they were neither being loud nor destructive). While I was trying to explain to my children that an inside voice was not good enough that they had to whisper they called my name and gave me 2.5 seconds to get to the counter (I literally heard my name picked up my things), before they--wait for it--put me at the back of the line. Oh yes that was a wonderful day. Just how I want to get medical care!

.

You were also told the death panels were gonna shoot Grandma because she needs a new hip. Can't believe everything we are told now can we?

Obamacare has not been implemented yet now has it. As I remember our current president said when asked about hip replacements for the elderly said "Sometimes you don't need a surgery, you need to take a pill and go home" Oh yes I am filled with hope about this.

Govt healthcare sucks,lets see what the Palin, original architect of the death panels has to say about it:

You know what I don't really care what Palin said about healthcare in Canada in the 1960's. I listen to what friends of mine from Canada and England have said. They come here if they can to have children/if their kids get a serious disease. Why--because in Canada they have had terrible trouble with getting the kind of care they want (obstetric care!) in the timeliness that birth requires. Often a simple treatment that can delay premature labor here in the US with a drug, is not given in Canada because the child is 22.1 weeks in gestation as opposed to 22.5. So the labor is not stopped and the child is born and subsequently died in Canadian hospital, while 2 hours away in the US a mom at 20 weeks gestation goes into labor and she is given the drug and gives birth 10 weeks later to a small but reasonably healthy baby. In England there is actually a dollar and cents number attached to you--if the care you require to live exceeds that--so sorry Charlie. You know our system has some serious flaws, but that is much much worse.

[Kreutz]

It is so AWESOME that every time I have to mail a package I sit in a line for 45 min to an hour.

You make the choice between cost savings and time. I once went to some festival and there was two ice cream trucks, one was giving free samples of soft serve, perhaps the size of a dixie cup.

The other was just selling ice cream. Guess which had the line about 40 people long and guess which had no line? I could wait in the hot sun for a tiny amount of free ice cream or spend $4.00 for a much larger quantity and immediate gratification, such is the way we make choices.

Financially the post office is constantly in the red.

Only because it is required to prepay all retiree benefits. Its doing fine.

perhaps but it is an example of a government run institution that is such a joy to do business with

I'll agree the DMV sucks, but its just the way it is.

You are incorrect I had all my paperwork. What made it a horror was the tiny room with a security guard that yelled at me for my kids talking and playing cars on the chair (they were neither being loud nor destructive). While I was trying to explain to my children that an inside voice was not good enough that they had to whisper they called my name and gave me 2.5 seconds to get to the counter (I literally heard my name picked up my things), before they--wait for it--put me at the back of the line. Oh yes that was a wonderful day. Just how I want to get medical care!

You've never been treated in your opinion poorly-ever-at a privately run store/establishment?

Obamacare has not been implemented yet now has it. As I remember our current president said when asked about hip replacements for the elderly said "Sometimes you don't need a surgery, you need to take a pill and go home" Oh yes I am filled with hope about this.

It's true, arthroplasty isn't always the best choice for every joint disorder. Americans (and not surprisingly their doctors) seem to immediately favor the most expensive, aggressive option.

You know what I don't really care what Palin said about healthcare in Canada in the 1960's.

of course you don't, hypocrisy from the Right is always OK.

I listen to what friends of mine from Canada and England have said. They come here if they can to have children/if their kids get a serious disease. Why--because in Canada they have had terrible trouble with getting the kind of care they want (obstetric care!) in the timeliness that birth requires. Often a simple treatment that can delay premature labor here in the US with a drug, is not given in Canada because the child is 22.1 weeks in gestation as opposed to 22.5. So the labor is not stopped and the child is born and subsequently died in Canadian hospital, while 2 hours away in the US a mom at 20 weeks gestation goes into labor and she is given the drug and gives birth 10 weeks later to a small but reasonably healthy baby. In England there is actually a dollar and cents number attached to you--if the care you require to live exceeds that--so sorry Charlie. You know our system has some serious flaws, but that is much much worse.

No different from those ice cream trucks. Those who otherwise wouldnt be able to get any ice cream can still get some now, theyre just gonna have to wait for it. Those who can afford that ice cream now will get it quickly and in much better portions.

Its funny because the Affordable Care Act has only positive impacts on private plans...like forbidding them from dumping you when you get sick. The horror.

[mamabearCali]

You make the choice between cost savings and time. I once went to some festival and there was two ice cream trucks, one was giving free samples of soft serve, perhaps the size of a dixie cup.

The other was just selling ice cream. Guess which had the line about 40 people long and guess which had no line? I could wait in the hot sun for a tiny amount of free ice cream or spend $4.00 for a much larger quantity and immediate gratification, such is the way we make choices.

I guess that is why I now go to the UPS store to send packages, and only mail letters from home.

I'll agree the DMV sucks, but its just the way it is.

It is the way it is because they have 0 incentive to do better. It is no skin off their nose because it does not matter if you wait 5 hours for a 10 minute transaction you will still have to use them next time. Government work at it's best.

You've never been treated in your opinion poorly-ever-at a privately run store/establishment?

Never that badly. If I had been I would not have ever returned, and I would have told the manager just why. But as with the DMV, I had no choice but to deal with them (because they are gov't run) and so thus I have no way to avoid them in the future so they have no incentive to keep me happy.

It's true, arthroplasty isn't always the best choice for every joint disorder. Americans (and not surprisingly their doctors) seem to immediately favor the most expensive, aggressive option.

Perhaps it is because I choose doctors that favor less invasive treatment first as opposed to ones that favor more (certified nurse midwives, physicians assistants, etc) but my doctors tend to go with my wishes primarily. At any case really you want a the government making that decision instead of you and your doctor?

of course you don't, hypocrisy from the Right is always OK.

Palin's experience with healthcare in the 1960's (50 years ago) does not equal what healthcare is today. So to quote her on 1960's Canadian healthcare is irrelevant.

No different from those ice cream trucks. Those who otherwise wouldnt be able to get any ice cream can still get some now, theyre just gonna have to wait for it. Those who can afford that ice cream now will get it quickly and in much better portions.

Except now we won't have a choice in our ice cream truck, and oh yes no one dies of lack of ice cream. People die with delay's in health care. "Oh yes Mrs. Jones you are in premature labor, and we have a drug that is not very expensive (it isn't) and it could likely stop your labor, but you have to wait a week to get it."

Its funny because the Affordable Care Act has only positive impacts on private plans...like forbidding them from dumping you when you get sick. The horror.

A 2,000 page bill that even the people who passed it said "Why bother reading it we won't understand it" has only positive effects on plans---somehow I don't think so. If that was the case it would be 25 pages long and understandable. It seems much more likely that it was a set up to get us into a single payer health plan where no one will be able to choose the other ice cream truck unless you are the privileged members of the political ruling elite.

[Kreutz]

I guess that is why I now go to the UPS store to send packages, and only mail letters from home.

So there you go.

It is the way it is because they have 0 incentive to do better. It is no skin off their nose because it does not matter if you wait 5 hours for a 10 minute transaction you will still have to use them next time. Government work at it's best.

My understanding i the VA DMV is so anal retentive is because due to the previously lax regulations the 9/11 hijackers used this state to get their ID's.

Never that badly. If I had been I would not have ever returned, and I would have told the manager just why. But as with the DMV, I had no choice but to deal with them (because they are gov't run) and so thus I have no way to avoid them in the future so they have no incentive to keep me happy.

Such is the nature of the beast.

Perhaps it is because I choose doctors that favor less invasive treatment first as opposed to ones that favor more (certified nurse midwives, physicians assistants, etc) but my doctors tend to go with my wishes primarily. At any case really you want a the government making that decision instead of you and your doctor?

Last I checked I needed "pre-approval" for many things from my health insurance company, how is that any different?

And btw, Medicare pays for joint replacements, I see them done rather frequently.

They were also the first to pay for breast implants for mastectomy patients; something the privates had to be forced to do by Clinton. Yeah, I'm reaaaal worried about the gov in this field.

Palin's experience with healthcare in the 1960's (50 years ago) does not equal what healthcare is today. So to quote her on 1960's Canadian healthcare is irrelevant.

No, its very relevant. She used a socialist healthcare system (as an illegal immigrant), why? Theyre death traps remember? Why didn't she get the great care no one can afford here?

Except now we won't have a choice in our ice cream truck, and oh yes no one dies of lack of ice cream.

met·a·phor

noun /ˈmetəˌfôr/  /-fər/

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable

People die with delay's in health care. "Oh yes Mrs. Jones you are in premature labor, and we have a drug that is not very expensive (it isn't) and it could likely stop your labor, but you have to wait a week to get it."

This does not happen in any industrialized nation.

A 2,000 page bill that even the people who passed it said "Why bother reading it we won't understand it" has only positive effects on plans---somehow I don't think so.

No one said that.

If that was the case it would be 25 pages long and understandable. It seems much more likely that it was a set up to get us into a single payer health plan where no one will be able to choose the other ice cream truck

Ah, the Herman "I can't be bothered to read" Cain approach to legislation. yes, lets cram thousands of reimbursement formulae, geographic price indices, diagnostic and procedural codes into a paragraph written in crayon.

I'm still amazed the bill was only 906 pages (less than half of the 2,000 pages you apparently pulled out of thin air) instead of 12,000 pages. Its complex stuff.

unless you are the privileged members of the political ruling elite.

Yes, them. taxpayer funded health insurance seems good enough for them, but its somehow bad for us. Ask the Bachmanns, Lowdens, and Perrys if they pay for their own insurance. They all love socialist healthcare (for themselves), its you they don't want to see in their doctors waiting room while they wait for their posh care.

You can trade a chicken for an MRI as far as they're concerned.

[zephyp]

Being given the choice between buying health insurance and not being a burden or paying a small fine seems positively benign, I don't understand the uproar; its really just one more law.

The uproar is being FORCED by the federal government to either buy health insurance or pay a fine...its kinda like me holding a gun on you for money...watch the gun or pay me money...either way its extortion by the government.

The big problem is this -- if they get away with this then what is next and where does it stop...

Again, I am FORCED by the FedGov to pay into fed income tax, medicare and social security or face fines and prison, how is this any different?

Medicare is like 45 years old, social security 70 something years old; we all seem to have survived.

I just find it very interesting there was no uproar over the mandate when it was a republican idea-which it was originally.

I agree with you for IMO all of those are unconstitutional along with obamacare...i dont care for any of them...let me keep my money and use it how I see fit...merely because the majority of republicans have "some" idea or belief doesnt mean I agree with them...why not..because I do not support either party...AFAIC there are fewer than a dozen of the whole crowd that stand up to any scrutiny of being a sound elected leader who supports the Constitution....

[mamabearCali]

I guess that is why I now go to the UPS store to send packages, and only mail letters from home.

So there you go.

I am not sure where I am going. A private company offers better service for a marginally higher price, and this proves that gov't healthcare is good?

My understanding i the VA DMV is so anal retentive is because due to the previously lax regulations the 9/11 hijackers used this state to get their ID's.

The DMV is a nightmare even if you have all your documents on hand because they are a part of a government bureaucracy (it was a nightmare before 9-11 it is just more so now). I can't wait till my kids health care is handled in the same way---goodie goodie gum drops!

Such is the nature of the beast.

Such is the nature of all government run programs

Last I checked I needed "pre-approval" for many things from my health insurance company, how is that any different?

And btw, Medicare pays for joint replacements, I see them done rather frequently.

They were also the first to pay for breast implants for mastectomy patients; something the privates had to be forced to do by Clinton. Yeah, I'm reaaaal worried about the gov in this field.

You know I have never ever had to get pre-approval for anything I have had done. Now just about everything has been routine in our lives--maybe that is why I have never had any trouble.

No, its very relevant. She used a socialist healthcare system (as an illegal immigrant), why? Theyre death traps remember? Why didn't she get the great care no one can afford here?

Sigh* if you want a picture of socialized medicine in the modern world--not from 50 years ago-- perhaps we should look at modern examples of it.

met·a·phor

noun /ˈmetəˌfôr/  /-fər/

A figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable

Your metaphor has broken down....that was my point. Free Ice Cream is not analogous in anyway to life saving treatment.

People die with delay's in health care. "Oh yes Mrs. Jones you are in premature labor, and we have a drug that is not very expensive (it isn't) and it could likely stop your labor, but you have to wait a week to get it."

This does not happen in any industrialized nation.

It does. It happened to a friend of mine in Canada. She was 20.5 weeks along and went into labor, instead of treating labor with a drug that could have possibly stopped the labor she was allowed to miscarry and the baby died 2 hours later. Had she been 22 weeks she was told she would have gotten the treatment.

A 2,000 page bill that even the people who passed it said "Why bother reading it we won't understand it" has only positive effects on plans---somehow I don't think so.

No one said that.

Ah, the Herman "I can't be bothered to read" Cain approach to legislation. yes, lets cram thousands of reimbursement formulae, geographic price indices, diagnostic and procedural codes into a paragraph written in crayon.

I'm still amazed the bill was only 906 pages (less than half of the 2,000 pages you apparently pulled out of thin air) instead of 12,000 pages. Its complex stuff.

No that would be your buddy Conyers who said that he could not be bothered to read the bill

"love these members, they get up and say, ‘Read the bill,’” said Rep. John Conyers. “What good is reading the bill if it’s a thousand pages and you don’t have two days and two lawyers to find out what it means after you read the bill?”"

Perhaps we should start writing laws that make sense!

Yes, them. taxpayer funded health insurance seems good enough for them, but its somehow bad for us. Ask the Bachmanns, Lowdens, and Perrys if they pay for their own insurance. They all love socialist healthcare (for themselves), its you they don't want to see in their doctors waiting room while they wait for their posh care.

I am fine with cancelling their insurance and letting them pay for their own insurance.


At the end of all this I am convinced that you and I are working from two totally different playbooks. I work from the playbook that less government is better government. That we need enough gov't to keep clean water in our pipes and our cars from being stolen (an oversimplification, but you get the idea). That when you give a man freedom to make his own decisions, it is a good thing, even if he makes a decision contrary to what you feel is best. I think that freedom even when inefficient and sometimes unfair is better than government control because the free market can right itself. When the government gets involved it gets much more hard to right wrongs (think the TSA and the current pat downs).

You seem to be working from a perspective that government does things best. That freedom needs to take a back seat to government control. Good luck with that.

I don't think our conversation can accomplish much else, other than simply sniping at each other.

[smltooner]

My understanding i the VA DMV is so anal retentive is because due to the previously lax regulations the 9/11 hijackers used this state to get their ID's.

9/11 had nothing to do with the VA DMV. They have always sucked.

[Kreutz]

At the end of all this I am convinced that you and I are working from two totally different playbooks.

Sigh. Yes, mine is from factual reality, yours from Faux News soundbites.

Read it yourself. 906 pages.

Not 2,000, no death panels, no witholding treatments, no government control.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-111h ... 590enr.pdf

I work from the playbook that less government is better government. That we need enough gov't to keep clean water in our pipes and our cars from being stolen (an oversimplification, but you get the idea).

But....what about the poor factory owner chafing under tyrannical EPA thugs who just wants to dump arsenic sludge into a nearby river? Surely his freedom need not be tampered with? Its socialism!

There is a movement amongst your Teaparty friends to abolish the EPA remember?

It does. It happened to a friend of mine in Canada. She was 20.5 weeks along and went into labor, instead of treating labor with a drug that could have possibly stopped the labor she was allowed to miscarry and the baby died 2 hours later. Had she been 22 weeks she was told she would have gotten the treatment.

The survival prognosis of a 20.5 week fetus is 0%. Generally 24 weeks is the survivable cutoff. Those doctors were acting in a medically appropriate fashion-your friend unfortunately had an incomplete miscarriage, not a "labor".

A 20 week fetus is six inches long and remarkably similar to a dog or other higher mammal fetus; thats what you're dealing with there.

Whatever you alluded to earlier where had she been in the US everything would have been fine is way out in space; she would have been given a therapeutic abortion here.

That when you give a man freedom to make his own decisions, it is a good thing, even if he makes a decision contrary to what you feel is best. I think that freedom even when inefficient and sometimes unfair is better than government control because the free market can right itself. When the government gets involved it gets much more hard to right wrongs (think the TSA and the current pat downs).

Free markets seem to frequently right themselves with public money don't they? Why does the public have to bail out the market and never the other way around?

Capitalism never has, nor ever will work, except for a choice minority.

Private profits, public losses is the mantra of capitalism.

You seem to be working from a perspective that government does things best. That freedom needs to take a back seat to government control. Good luck with that.

Wait, how come your flag waving and apple pie analogy gets an entire paragraph of freedom-loving goodness, but I get two and a half dismissive sentences?

I don't think our conversation can accomplish much else, other than simply sniping at each other.

Ah, it's all in good fun. Relax.

[mamabearCali]

Sigh. Yes, mine is from factual reality, yours from Faux News soundbites.

Sir, I was a conservative before fox news was a TV station and that says alot considering I was born in 1980.

The survival prognosis of a 20.5 week fetus is 0%. Generally 24 weeks is the survivable cutoff. Those doctors were acting in a medically appropriate fashion-your friend unfortunately had an incomplete miscarriage, not a "labor".

A 20 week fetus is six inches long and remarkably similar to a dog or other higher mammal fetus; thats what you're dealing with there.

Whatever you alluded to earlier where had she been in the US everything would have been fine is way out in space; she would have been given a therapeutic abortion here.

You have very little knowledge of what a baby looks like at 20 weeks gestation or is at developmentally if you think it is like a dog in any way---may I suggest a google image search. The treatment should could have gotten in the US would have likely stopped labor and thus allowed the child to continue in her womb until viable it is routinely done here. It was not abnormal care. BTW If I were told to have a therapeutic abortion I would remove myself from that doctors care immediately.

Free markets seem to frequently right themselves with public money don't they? Why does the public have to bail out the market and never the other way around? .

Don't bail them out! That is how capitalism works. If you love socialism so much there are many places to go where they practice this--why bring it here.

Wait, how come your flag waving and apple pie analogy gets an entire paragraph of freedom-loving goodness, but I get two and a half dismissive sentences?

Because I don't know what else is in your playbook. You can speak to that yourself.

Ah, it's all in good fun. Relax.

You may enjoy watching the destruction of the freedoms we have loved so much, but I really don't. It is quite serious to me that a government entity is attempting to force us to either buy something or pay a fine.

[Kreutz]

Sir, I was a conservative before fox news was a TV station and that says alot considering I was born in 1980.

Whoa, we're almost the same age? I had you pegged for fiftyish based on your outdated social norms.

BTW If I were told to have a therapeutic abortion I would remove myself from that doctors care immediately.

So if you had an incomplete abortion/miscarriage you'd rather retain the "products of conception" (what the fetus is called once fetal death occurs) and die a horrific death of septic shock rather than have a therapeutic abortion?

Don't bail them out!

Well, I have obviously made a decision to make sure the economy doesn’t collapse. I’ve abandoned free market principles to save the free market system.

That is how capitalism works.

Yes, it works on exploitation. The executives who publicly laud the free market will always privately demand more public money for themselves. They always want more for themselves, less for everybody else. This is why they've been chomping at the bit to get our social security money and will always come out hat in hand for more US Treasury funds/IOUS scribbled in Chinese.

If you love socialism so much there are many places to go where they practice this--why bring it here.

I prefer to see this country put on the right path, I am an American citizen.

Because I don't know what else is in your playbook. You can speak to that yourself.

Oh, the usual liberals dreams. Forced abortions for the stem cell collectivist farm, gay orgies in public schools, mandatory gay interracial bestiality marriage.....you know, fun stuff like that.

You may enjoy watching the destruction of the freedoms we have loved so much, but I really don't. It is quite serious to me that a government entity is attempting to force us to either buy something or pay a fine.

[/quote][/quote]

And yet again, we find ourselves at the car insurance analogy. Government can require us to do all sorts of things or face a negative reinforcement; this is no different.

[zephyp]

@Kreutz - "outdated social norms..." -- thats one of the biggest problems I have with liberals...progressions...you think that merely because time has gone by that certain things previously not previously socially acceptable should now be socially acceptable...how long will it be until say for example its socially acceptable for grown men to have sex with girls between the ages of 10 and 12...yeah, I know an extreme example right...think of terms of what folks 70 years ago thought of as extreme is now "socially acceptable..." ...the passage of time and a group of idiots all beating the same drum doesnt make something right...it takes a little more than that sport...

Btw, did you know that KA is getting ready to pass a law mandating that homo stuff be taught in schools...keeps moving farther and farther into that social norm space you mentioned...I'm glad I'm 52 and wont be around in another 70 or so years to suffer in your socially normal society...makes me shudder...

[mamabearCali]

Whoa, we're almost the same age? I had you pegged for fiftyish based on your outdated social norms.

Really I had you pegged for either a 22 -25 year old idealist fresh out of college with little life experience or a 50-ish hippie that never out grew the nonsense of the late 60's/70's.

And yet again, we find ourselves at the car insurance analogy. Government can require us to do all sorts of things or face a negative reinforcement; this is no different.

And yet again I say they can only make you buy car insurance if you choose to own a car. They according to this bill can make you buy health insurance simply for being over 18 and alive. This would be the first time in our nations history that in order to be a citizen in good standing you hadto buy a government sponsored product just for the privilege of being alive.

[mamabearCali]

I meant to include this in my last post but hit submit too soon.

So if you had an incomplete abortion/miscarriage you'd rather retain the "products of conception" (what the fetus is called once fetal death occurs) and die a horrific death of septic shock rather than have a therapeutic abortion?

Bait and switch there buddy, on that argument. If the child is alive (as my friends was) a therapeutic abortion still takes the life of the child. And that in my book is NEVER acceptable and any doctor who suggested that would immediately find himself out of a patient (the one exception I know of to this is an ectopic pregnancy because neither mother nor child can survive if the situation continues). That was not the case for my friend. However, if the child is already dead--well there is no harm in removing the body.

[Kreutz]

I meant to include this in my last post but hit submit too soon.

So if you had an incomplete abortion/miscarriage you'd rather retain the "products of conception" (what the fetus is called once fetal death occurs) and die a horrific death of septic shock rather than have a therapeutic abortion?

Bait and switch there buddy, on that argument. If the child is alive (as my friends was) a therapeutic abortion still takes the life of the child. And that in my book is NEVER acceptable and any doctor who suggested that would immediately find himself out of a patient (the one exception I know of to this is an ectopic pregnancy because neither mother nor child can survive if the situation continues). That was not the case for my friend. However, if the child is already dead--well there is no harm in removing the body.

Not entirely a bait and switch; I am dealing with third hand info. I wasn't there, I didn't see the ultrasounds or the fetal heart monitor. I am just very very very skeptical a viable pregnancy was left to terminate for want of very inexpensive very available drugs in a first world hospital;something isn't adding up.

My point is the doctors likely saw something that led them to conclude the fetus wasnt viable, and I cannot consider this one example a condemnation of a healthcare system that is considered quite good in access and quality.

Funny you mention ectopics; the only case I can recall off the top of my head of one being successfully born was in England, under true socialist medicine-and the total cost was quite steep (obviously), yet it was done.

(Saying Canada has socialist medicine is a misnomer, it actually has socialized insurance, not socialized medicine).

[mamabearCali]

Not entirely a bait and switch; I am dealing with third hand info. I wasn't there, I didn't see the ultrasounds or the fetal heart monitor. I am just very very very skeptical a viable pregnancy was left to terminate for want of very inexpensive very available drugs in a first world hospital;something isn't adding up.

My point is the doctors likely saw something that led them to conclude the fetus wasnt viable, and I cannot consider this one example a condemnation of a healthcare system that is considered quite good in access and quality.

Funny you mention ectopics; the only case I can recall off the top of my head of one being successfully born was in England, under true socialist medicine-and the total cost was quite steep (obviously), yet it was done.

(Saying Canada has socialist medicine is a misnomer, it actually has socialized insurance, not socialized medicine).

The baby was allowed to be born 20 weeks early and die (2 hours after it was born--so it was obviously alive before labor started) because (according to my friend) that was "policy" for pre-term labor at 20 weeks at that hospital in Canada. She begged for a transport to the hospital 2.5 hours away in the US where they would have given her the drug, but it was too little too late. Those types of things are quite time sensitive.

On the ectopic pregnancy in Britain I read about it, saw it on TV, and was amazed. However, it was a 1 in a million chance that both mother and child lived. Sadly most do not end that way. I would not consider those good odds at all. Thus the exception for the life of the mother.

[grumpyMSG]

mamabearCali and Kreutz you should give it a rest between you. I am no genius, but I can see neither of you is going to win this argument in the eyes of the other. The real joke of this thread is that this isn't the first court ruling, by my recollection it is probably about the fourth to or fifth case, two of which were won by the states' Attorneys General in Virginia and Florida, and two of which were won by the Attorneys representing the Federal Government. The joke of it is VA's A.G. tried to get the appeal straight to the Supreme Court, bypassing the Court of Appeals. The Supreme Court said no, go through the regular process. The cases are destined to be decided there so the better question is, why didn't they just accept the case just to speed up the process and reduce the cost?

[Yarddawg]

the better question is, why didn't they just accept the case just to speed up the process and reduce the cost?

Because that would make too much sense!

[zephyp]

@Kreutz - what I would like to know is since you think Fox News is so bad, why and compare/contrast that with other news outlets such as MSNBC, etc.