Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Kreutz wrote:I wanted to move to Europe (its a better quality of life)

Kreutz wrote:

zephyp wrote:This group should learn from history and go find someplace where they can live life the way they want. Dont worry, we wont come after you and try to force you to live our way. Not worth the trouble. You can take your beliefs and just leave

Not quite, if I move to Germany or any other country I am still required to pay US income tax on income earned in that country.

And they do extradite for this.

I wanted to move to Europe (its a better quality of life) but my wife wouldn't go, so, I'm stuck here.

Easy solution to that...renounce your citizenship and become a citizen of the UK or Germany. You kill a couple of birds with one stone...and as a bonus you get your wish...better way of life...try to buy a real gun when you get to the UK or Germany...better yet why dontcha take the ones you have now with you....

TheGodfather wrote:

Kreutz wrote:I wanted to move to Europe (its a better quality of life)

EU nations routinely trounce us on levels of health, education, and happiness.

I was also very happy there and didn't want to leave.

zephyp wrote:Easy solution to that...renounce your citizenship and become a citizen of the UK or Germany. You kill a couple of birds with one stone...and as a bonus you get your wish...better way of life...try to buy a real gun when you get to the UK or Germany...better yet why dontcha take the ones you have now with you....

Again, my wife refused to budge, I lost.

I would never live in the UKits a cesspool.

zephyp wrote:A simple history lesson that should partly repeat itself....Our country was founded primarily because a group of people wanted to do things different from the way the king ran things so they came to America. This group of people worked and had families and lived their lives the way they wanted. The king didnt like this so he sent troops to try and force the people in America to do things his way. They fought a long hard war and eventually won. These folks then formed a government based on a Constitution. This Constitution and their vision established our way of life and America was born.There now seems to be a large group of people who dont like the way things are done and desire a radical departure from American ways based on the Founding Father's ideals and beliefs.This group should learn from history and go find someplace where they can live life the way they want. Dont worry, we wont come after you and try to force you to live our way. Not worth the trouble. You can take your beliefs and just leave.If the king followed the original Americans, did what he did and suffered the eventual outcome...what do you think might eventually happen if you continue to stand our ground and attempt to force your way of life upon us....Just food for thought...Happy Wednesday....

Zeph, Our country fought a revolution against feudalism, and the Constitution envisioned a government that could be owned by “The People” and a structure that would allow “The People” to change it as needed. I don’t care to get into a debate about original intent….it doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter.
The only thing that matters is TODAY. What do we want gov’t to be TODAY?, not what we wanted the government to be back in the 1780’s. And, I think the founders would support that approach.
The States have enough authority to create their cultures and they do exactly that. Gun laws, marijuana laws, etc. can be different in each state. But even in those days, the Federal Gov’t and the States all passed laws that people had to live by (forcing them to do things some didn’t want). And, remember we fought a Civil war over States Rights and Slavery, which was the Federal Government telling people what to do and how they conduct their business and how “property” is defined. (Remember negroes were considered property.) The Confederacy LOST THAT WAR. Those issues were SETTLED. You can’t go back and reconsider them because time marches forward.
If you want that kind of life, I suggest you move to Wyoming….where cowboys can live a life of their choosing. But don’t ask the rest of society to move because of a belief of original intent.
Dems4Guns

dems4guns wrote:But don’t ask the rest of society to move because of a belief of original intent.
Dems4Guns

Is you ig'nant? Why don't you try googling founding fathers gun quotes? Here, I'll do it for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=founding+fathers+gun+quotes

Yarddawg wrote:

dems4guns wrote:But don’t ask the rest of society to move because of a belief of original intent.
Dems4Guns

Is you ig'nant? Why don't you try googling founding fathers gun quotes? Here, I'll do it for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=founding+fathers+gun+quotes

Not ignorant, and the quotes from founding fathers are not in the Constitution.
It doesn't matter what they said anyway. What matters is what we want our country to be TODAY. If you want it to be something its not, then specify that rather than spouting founding fathers. What would you change?
Dems4Guns

zephyp wrote: Wow...and it looks like you are a soldier...man if I were you I'd be grabbin some of that and beer and just relax...if you get bored you always review your oath...that part about the Constitution is kinda important...btw and quite seriously -- thank you for your service...I drive by Arlington cemetery a couple times each day and pray that the lives of our heroes are not shed in vain...

yes I am in the Army. Honestly I just didn't like the way dems4guns got called out like that, the opening of this thread seemed slightly hostile and its just in my nature to side with the underdog. Not in reality that big of a fan of Obama, but I do believe he was the lesser of the two evils in the last election and I believe the daily lives of our citizens have improved, even if only a little. Now that dems4guns has listed his political beliefs I have to say I pretty much agree with him on 90% of it.

-The war on drugs causes more harm to society than the drugs themselves do

-regulating prostitution, although I'd still never consider hiring one, would provide a safer environment for girls whom have already had a hard enough life to end up in that line of work. it is the worlds oldest profession anyhow, its not going anywhere

Abortion- kinda struck home to me, my girlfriend in college got pregnant and decided to have one. Broke my heart, I wasn't ready to be a father at 19 but I was going to man up and do what I needed to do for that kid. I can't say I'll ever forgive her but I do believe it was her right to make that decision.

States holding power over the federal government- It really is nice to remember those good 'ol days but I don't know that they'll ever return for better or for worse. Our federal government is a massive beast and I don't see it giving the power it's siezed back. I feel the best strategy is to adapt and try to work the new system to our likeing.

welfare-food stamps are good but they should not be able to be used for comfort foods. no potato chips or anything like that. I don't like the idea of people starving in america, even the worthless lazy ones, but if you want something more tasty than rice and canned beans, you should have to get a job

-gun laws- i agree you shouldn't be able to own a machine gun but I still don't understand why sawed off shotguns and short barreled rifles are illegal

@Cody - based on your logic everything should change as we move forward in time...morals, laws, standards, etc....I'll give you a litte run down on changes I've seen...

- Prayer removed from schools
- Legalized abortion
- Advancement of the homosexual agenda in schools
- Self professed communists working in the white house
- Same sex marriage
- Bias towards sharia law by some courts

These arent things that have merely been embraced by the citizenry. These are things directly supported by law of those in positions of power. So, where will we be in another 50 years. Here's a preview...

- Legalized euthanasia
- Mandatory euthanasia for terminal patients
- Public worship forbidden unless state sponsored
- Dissolution and/or radical change of marriage
- Complete decriminalization of all sexually related crimes except forcible rape
- Mandatory abortion unless pregnancy state approved

I believe in trends and natural extrapolation. If we see a constant decline in morals (what you might see as an increase in tolerance) over a period of years then we can expect that trend to continue. So, lets take the other side...an increase in tolerance. make it positive for you and the other leftists...

So, if we continue to see a steady increase in tolerance where does it stop....at what point do even the most liberal among you stand up and say enough is enough...murder ok, rape ok, hands on homosexual classes in grade schools....where is the line...complete acceptance of sharia law...where will it stop...

Ooops. I think it just did. Kinda like one of those unintended consequences. Sharia law. Lets look at that for just a moment. So, liberals want to welcome muslims and their beliefs here with open arms. Ok, thats all well and good but where does it stop. What happens when they implement sharia law.

Did you know that there have been at least 2 cases I am aware of here in the US where a judge has stated that a matter between 2 muslims in his court would be settled according to sharia law. How well do you think that would go over if a muslim judge decided that sharia law would rule in a case between a muslim and an American...or 2 Americans...how about 2 homosexual American citizens....ooops...

So, better think about where all this is headed. We have to draw the line some where.

zephyp wrote:@Cody - based on your logic everything should change as we move forward in time...morals, laws, standards, etc....I'll give you a litte run down on changes I've seen...

- Prayer removed from schools

It never belonged there.

- Advancement of the homosexual agenda in schools

I realize you've been out of school for a few decades and probably read news on "the militant homosexual agenda" on the always wrong Fox, but I went to school after this started and the "brainwashing" amounted to basically "gays are people too". Very insidious I know.

- Same sex marriage

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Kreutz wrote:

zephyp wrote:@Cody - based on your logic everything should change as we move forward in time...morals, laws, standards, etc....I'll give you a litte run down on changes I've seen...

- Prayer removed from schools

It never belonged there.

If prayer doesn't belong there, then how can you say that homosexuality does?

Kreutz wrote:

zephyp wrote:- Advancement of the homosexual agenda in schools

I realize you've been out of school for a few decades and probably read news on "the militant homosexual agenda" on the always wrong Fox, but I went to school after this started and the "brainwashing" amounted to basically "gays are people too". Very insidious I know.

This amounts to the school system condoning homosexual behavior, which is a very bad precedent to set IMHO. I am pulling my oldest daughter out of public school next year because they've gone crazy at the high school. Normal kids aren't allowed to function anymore. All the whack-jobs make it impossible.

@Kreutz - all 3 of those things are based on God's word...many of our common day laws can also be found in the Bible...many of the 10 Commandments...

The point isnt whether or not you believe in the Bible or think those 3 things should have never been....the point is if we as a society constantly allow things to erode then when do we reach a point where everything and anything is ok except belief in the Bible...then you throw out a few other things that are part of our common everyday laws...theft, murder, how about open and accepted incest, or sex with or marriage with animals...again my question where is the line...where does it stop...who decides...

Case in point...a simple one...Young demands that we leave for the gym at 5:30 sharp of before...5:31 is not acceptable...sounds petty and harsh but she knows me well...5:31 will soon turn into 5:35 and before you know it by the time we leave its too late so screw going in the first place...

You and I both know people well also...before we know it the schools will be teaching its ok to have sex with animals...sound outlandish...yeah right...50 years ago (ok, 75 years ago after remembering this is 2011) virtually EVERY American would have shuddered at the thought of homosexuality being embraced by schools...

Think about it...

The point is not what you or I or anyone else believes...the point is boundaries must be set and closely watched...

Thinking about the downward turn our morality has taken in this nation reminds me of a song I know. As it is a very neighborly song I will share a few lyrics with yall.

"It’s a slow fade when you give yourself away
It’s a slow fade when black and white have turned to gray
Thoughts invade, choices are made, a price will be paid
When you give yourself away
People (and nations) never crumble in a day
It’s a slow fade, it’s a slow fade"

Others may disagree but when I look back (for the most part) over the changing morality of the past 50 years it is what I think of.

zephyp wrote: Think about it...

The point is not what you or I or anyone else believes...the point is boundaries must be set and closely watched...

And the clincher to that is that the boundaries can't come from man, or else the rules just come from whoever is in charge at the time. Hence the the 10 Commandments are the default setting whether you believe in God or not.

@ Christie - If the majority of the population can't recognize human nature, and isn't striving to rise above it instead of wallowing in it, then the decline is just a matter of time.

Palladin wrote:@ Christie - If the majority of the population can't recognize human nature, and isn't striving to rise above it instead of wallowing in it, then the decline is just a matter of time.

As a person who tries to do what is right as much as possible it is heartbreaking to see our culture walk down a path (that always leads to the decline of a civilization) and try as I might not be able to seem to do a thing about it outside of my little ones and my four walls. How sad it is to see what happened to other civilizations happen to ours. Perhaps, just maybe there will be a reprieve. We can always hope.

zephyp wrote:@Kreutz - all 3 of those things are based on God's word...many of our common day laws can also be found in the Bible...many of the 10 Commandments...

The point isnt whether or not you believe in the Bible or think those 3 things should have never been....the point is if we as a society constantly allow things to erode then when do we reach a point where everything and anything is ok except belief in the Bible...then you throw out a few other things that are part of our common everyday laws...theft, murder, how about open and accepted incest, or sex with or marriage with animals...again my question where is the line...where does it stop...who decides...

The thing is though, public schools really do not have a right to endorse a religion. Take the 10 Commandments, this may shock you, but in principle I really don't care. However in practice it really is construed as a state sponsorship of a religion (mainly #1) and thus unconstitutional.

The other thing is this notion religion somehow guarantees morality. If we just allowed prayer kids would stop failing, getting pregnant, or using drugs!

This is laughable. Growing up my own experience was (with no religious background) I got in a whole lot less trouble than my friends that did the sunday school thing and all that.

I find it interesting you mention incest, is that not Biblically approved? Did God not spare Lot and his daughters, and did those very daughters not seduce their father? Clearly God (who is omnipotent and saw that coming) condones incest as they were specifically spared.

This is why religion should not dictate public policy. We can all agree stealing and murder is wrong, but why do we need 10 jewish rules in our schools to remind us of that?

You and I both know people well also...before we know it the schools will be teaching its ok to have sex with animals...sound outlandish...yeah right...50 years ago (ok, 75 years ago after remembering this is 2011) virtually EVERY American would have shuddered at the thought of homosexuality being embraced by schools...

Bestiality has been practiced on and off in many cultures, and is not unique to humans (ever see your dog hump your cat? Same violation of speciation) and while it gives me the heebie-jeebies, I know it, like homosexuality isn't gonna go anywhere. Some people are just wired a certain way.

Public schools don't have to "condone a religion" in order to allow prayer. I don't think anyone is saying that we want require class-wide participation in Christian prayer. It would be enough to allow someone to pray before they eat lunch or to speak to another student about God. without being reprimanded for "bringing religion into the school"

dems4guns wrote:

Yarddawg wrote:

dems4guns wrote:But don’t ask the rest of society to move because of a belief of original intent.
Dems4Guns

Is you ig'nant? Why don't you try googling founding fathers gun quotes? Here, I'll do it for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=founding+fathers+gun+quotes

Not ignorant, and the quotes from founding fathers are not in the Constitution.
It doesn't matter what they said anyway. What matters is what we want our country to be TODAY. If you want it to be something its not, then specify that rather than spouting founding fathers. What would you change?
Dems4Guns

You implied that we cannot know what the founding father's intents were. I supplied the quotes from those same framers of the Constitution to show what their intents were. If you cannot accept that, don't make the implication!

As far as what I want, I think that I have stated it numerous times to you already, but I will state some of them again for you (unlike how you have demonstrated an unwillingness to tackle the tough questions that I have proposed to you!)

A law abiding citizen should be able to obtain and possess in whatever manner they deem acceptable any firearm that they so choose without any governmental intrusion whatsoever!

If that means that John Q. Public wants to have a fully automatic .50 caliber handgun and conceal it on his person while traveling freely from state to state in this once great nation, so be it! It's really nobody's business but his!

This would, of necessity, involve the revocation of the NFA and along with it the BATFE (not a bad thing IMO!).

As for the rest of my beliefs, although I despise political parties, I find that the Constitution party best aligns with most of my core beliefs. http://www.constitutionparty.com/party_platform.php

dems4guns wrote:

Yarddawg wrote:

dems4guns wrote:But don’t ask the rest of society to move because of a belief of original intent.
Dems4Guns

Is you ig'nant? Why don't you try googling founding fathers gun quotes? Here, I'll do it for you:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=founding+fathers+gun+quotes

Not ignorant, and the quotes from founding fathers are not in the Constitution.
It doesn't matter what they said anyway. What matters is what we want our country to be TODAY. If you want it to be something its not, then specify that rather than spouting founding fathers. What would you change?
Dems4Guns

Why does anything have to change? Change is what's ruining our country! The only change I want is to go back to the solid bedrock principles that this country was founded upon. I've had more than enough of the touchy-feely way of life. I want to go back to a society where if you act like an idiot, someone can call you an idiot!

Zeph, the breakdown of society is a myth. Yes, things are changing, but you are missing all the ways in which things are changing for the good.
Fact: The percentage of people who attend church every year has not really changed for the past 20 years.
Fact: The amount of alcohol and tobacco consumed per person continues to decline every year.
Fact: We went from poor American's malnourished back in the 50's and 60's to people being overweight in the 90's.
Fact: The average lifespan continues to rise in the US.
Fact: War is being fought with less loss of American blood than in traditional wars of the past.
Fact: Technology has allowed us to feed the world, even thought the world population continues to grow.
Fact: The danger of nuclear war has been radically reduced;
Fact: The level of divorce has stabilized and gone down in some cases.
Fact: America has some of the cleanest air and water on the planet, reversing a serious downward trend in pollution from the 70's.
THis is just a quick list, but things have gotten better. Are there huge problems? Yes. But let's not forget the good things.

zephyp wrote:@Cody - based on your logic everything should change as we move forward in time...morals, laws, standards, etc....I'll give you a litte run down on changes I've seen...

Never said morals should change. Of course laws should change and standards should change as technology allows and as people change.

zephyp wrote:- Prayer removed from schools
- Legalized abortion

We are not all Christians, it is unAmerican to force your religion on someone else...that goes for Muslims, too. Abortion is based on the right to privacy....don't we want to protect a private decision like abortion and contraception and which other adults we sleep with?[/quote]

zephyp wrote:- Advancement of the homosexual agenda in schools

If you are talking about teaching tolerance towards gay people, then there is nothing wrong with that. But nobody is trying to teach kids to be gay. Besides, nothing wrong with being gay, right?....this is America...home of LIBERTY, right?

zephyp wrote:- Self professed communists working in the white house

This is projection based on misinterpretation. Obama is certainly not a communist. Have particular individuals worked in the whitehouse who at one time or another believed in socialism or communism or Naziism?...Yes. Andrew Jackson was accused of turning the whitehouse into a whorehouse. The political enemies make up lies and distort stuff to attack the other side. Nobody in the whitehouse is trying to turn America into a socialism or communism...that is sheer political propaganda.

zephyp wrote:- Same sex marriage

This is America....home of LIBERTY, right?

zephyp wrote:- Bias towards sharia law by some courts

More political propaganda. Individual court cases are trumped up and distorted to make it seem like this is a trend. There is no trend. There are simply more cases making their way into the courts. I suggest you check your personal bias on this issue...we want America to be a place of religious tolerance, not Christian indoctrination, right?

zephyp wrote:- Legalized euthanasia

Have to be clear here. Sheer political propaganda to suggest euthanasia is being forced on ANYONE. However, I do believe is a LIBERTY to CHOOSE your place and time of death. This is America...home of LIBERTY, right?

zephyp wrote:- Mandatory euthanasia for terminal patients

Where do you get this stuff? This is sheer political propaganda used to drum up false pretense for going after government regulation of medicine. Nobody is suggesting this except for political enemies.

zephyp wrote:- Public worship forbidden unless state sponsored

This is a tough issue. There has to be a balance here. It's not right to have Christian prayer at the opening of a public event, such as High School Graduation, because it will offend too many non-Christians at a time of great celebration. On the other hand, if people want to pray publicly without disturbing the peace, they should be free to do that. I see people praying in front of abortion clinics on public property, and I think that is fine. I think the best balance is a non-religious "moment of silence" that allows people to pray privately at public events if they choose to do so and that should be respected by the nonreligious. But NOBODY is suggesting state-sponsored worship....again sheer political propaganda.

zephyp wrote:- Dissolution and/or radical change of marriage

This is a tough issue too. I personally think that marriage should be a private affair and the state should not discourage nor encourage marriage. LIBERTY should prevail here and adults should be able to define marriage how they want. When it involves children, that is when the State needs to get involved to establish and enforce parental responsibilities and entitlements.

zephyp wrote:- Complete decriminalization of all sexually related crimes except forcible rape

Pure political propaganda. Nobody is suggesting laws against incest and statutory rape should be abandoned. If anything, there are more laws going on the books to better protect minors. I do think the laws need to be more lenient when it comes to teenagers and young adults. In some states an 18/19 year old adult dating his 17 year old girlfriend could be accused of statutory rape. That should change. But nobody is suggesting improper sex with minors should be decriminalized. Should a 15yo boy be charged with rape because he had sex with a 13yo girld?...NO. They are doing what a lot of youngs teens are doing...we shouldn't criminalize that. Should we educate them and encourage them to be abstinent until a later age? YES.

zephyp wrote:- Mandatory abortion unless pregnancy state approved

Where do you get this stuff???LOL Ridiculous.

zephyp wrote:I believe in trends and natural extrapolation. If we see a constant decline in morals (what you might see as an increase in tolerance) over a period of years then we can expect that trend to continue. So, lets take the other side...an increase in tolerance. make it positive for you and the other leftists...

I don't see a decline in morals. If anything, I see an increase in morals that justify harsher punishments for crimes. Also, morality and tolerance are not conflicting values...they are very much a part of the American fabric. It is very moral to be tolerant. Remember Christian charity and forgiveness? THAT is tolerance. That is not to say we should tolerate things that are clearly harmful to our families: lying, cheating, drug abuse, sexual promiscuity, etc.

zephyp wrote:So, if we continue to see a steady increase in tolerance where does it stop....at what point do even the most liberal among you stand up and say enough is enough...murder ok, rape ok, hands on homosexual classes in grade schools....where is the line...complete acceptance of sharia law...where will it stop...

Nobody is suggesting we be tolerant of behavior that is clearly harmful or discriminatory. But if Muslims wish to have the LIBERTY to live privately under muslim code, as long as it doesn't violate the common standards of morality, then isn't that what the Constitution should protect? Common standards of morality are not going away and nobody is suggesting they should. But, should the laws change to reflect modern values and support religious and individual preferences? YES. That is what Liberty envisions, right?

zephyp wrote:Ooops. I think it just did. Kinda like one of those unintended consequences. Sharia law. Lets look at that for just a moment. So, liberals want to welcome muslims and their beliefs here with open arms. Ok, thats all well and good but where does it stop. What happens when they implement sharia law.

You have your facts wrong. Liberals have just as much, if not more, difficulty with Sharia law than conservatives. Please don't confuse religious tolerance with embracing their religion. I don't like the head scarfs. I don't like the way Muslims treat their women. There are a lot of problems with Islam and Christianity due to the ancient religious nature of the Bible and the Koran. But people should be free to believe in their religion of choice and should be able to practice it privately as long as non one else is harmed or forced in the process.

zephyp wrote:Did you know that there have been at least 2 cases I am aware of here in the US where a judge has stated that a matter between 2 muslims in his court would be settled according to sharia law. How well do you think that would go over if a muslim judge decided that sharia law would rule in a case between a muslim and an American...or 2 Americans...how about 2 homosexual American citizens....ooops...

I could envision a court accepting as a matter of CIVIL LAW, that religious matters would be settled by religious authorities. In Criminal cases judges are obligated to use the common law statutues that are race, gender and faith neutral. But in CIVIL LAW, that involves cases between two private parties, and if they agreed to be judged by Sharia law, then that is their freedome...LIBERTY, right?

zephyp wrote:So, better think about where all this is headed. We have to draw the line some where.

I think we already have drawn the lines and I don't think we are in that much disagreement over where it should be drawn. I would check your facts, though, and ensure you have real facts and not just somebody's propaganda.

Speaking of drawing lines, where do you draw the line on firearms and weapons? Machine Guns? Tanks, Nuclear Weapons? Chemical Weapons? Nuclear tipped Missiles?...where?
Dems4Guns