Does the "soak the rich" tax scheme work?

[zephyp]

@ Kreutz - its not federally funded...only part...we pay a share too just like any other employee would in private corporation.

@Gatlingun - GET BENT...

[VBshooter]

[Reverenddel]

A man has an idea, creates a product, brings the product to market, it's successful. He makes money.

Why does he owe a DAMNED thing to ANYONE else?!? He took the risk, spent the time on research and development, marketing, and fnally got the rewards from being an innovator. You remember that? When America was filled with INNOVATORS!?!? Not these hands out lazy POS's that have RUINED this country.... they make me sick.

ALSO, IF the man hires workers, then they agree to trade time/skill for pay. If they don't like it? QUIT! This "Milking the profits" for all they're worth is what's bringing down some companies. You have to put money ASIDE for hard times! You cannot continue to dispurse with NOTHING left over!

The way government SHOULD work? The local provides for the immediate needs of it's citizens request within the budget, state covers what the local cannot, and federal handles what the local, and state cannot.

Right now? It's topsy-turvy. The Fed taxes people, then "trickles" the funds back to the local level. As to those "poorer" districts, if the money flows UP to the Feds, and your local, and state governments are doing their parts, then the surplus from that staging would come back to you.

Again LOCAL-STATE-FED as the final stage.

Just my opinion though.

[Kreutz]

@ Kreutz - its not federally funded...only part...we pay a share too just like any other employee would in private corporation.

So...who pays the other part?

[Yarddawg]

The problem with terms like "fat" is that my fat is someone's beef. I remember our governor lecturing the Feds to stop spending shortly after he came into office. Out came the next federal budget wherein the navy decreased the size of it's fleet, and the NATO Headquarters in Norfolk was on the chopping block. In that budget over a thousand jobs would be lost in Norfolk and Hampton Roads area. Did our governor and Congressional delegation say they got it? Nope, they argued instead that the Administration was sacrificing national security.

Keep in mind the national defense is one thing that IS specifically authorized by the Constitution. Can we say that about all of the other things that you mentioned?

Bringing the deficit under control means addressing the following:
Medicare and Medicaid: 21% of fed spending
Social Security: 20%
Defense: 20%
Other Mandatory Spending (Vets compensation, food stamps, unemployment compensation, etc.) 17%

The only thing listed that is authorized by the constitution is defense!

So let's stop posturing, drop the name calling, and get rid of the talking points because none of it solves a thing.
Gat6

I could not agree more! Let's stop the posturing and get down to business. If it's not authorized in the Constitution, IT GOES! Using your numbers, we could cut 58% of the budget and not violate the supreme law of the land.

[gatlingun6]

A man has an idea, creates a product, brings the product to market, it's successful. He makes money.

Why does he owe a DAMNED thing to ANYONE else?!? He took the risk, spent the time on research and development, marketing, and fnally got the rewards from being an innovator. You remember that? When America was filled with INNOVATORS!?!? Not these hands out lazy POS's that have RUINED this country.... they make me sick.

ALSO, IF the man hires workers, then they agree to trade time/skill for pay. If they don't like it? QUIT! This "Milking the profits" for all they're worth is what's bringing down some companies. You have to put money ASIDE for hard times! You cannot continue to dispurse with NOTHING left over!

The way government SHOULD work? The local provides for the immediate needs of it's citizens request within the budget, state covers what the local cannot, and federal handles what the local, and state cannot.

Right now? It's topsy-turvy. The Fed taxes people, then "trickles" the funds back to the local level. As to those "poorer" districts, if the money flows UP to the Feds, and your local, and state governments are doing their parts, then the surplus from that staging would come back to you.

Again LOCAL-STATE-FED as the final stage.

Just my opinion though.

*************************************************************************
The answer to the question why does he owe anything to anyone is pretty simple. 1. Without government there is NO MARKET! Instead it's anarchy, every man for himself. 2. How does the man get his product to market without a highly developed transportation system. 3. How does the man protect his ideas without government. 4. How does the man count on a relatively stable monetary system without government. 5. From where does the man get educated employees without government? And it goes on and on. Please cite any country with a "bare bones", or no government where entrepreneurs are more numerous, or more successful than here in the good ole U.S. of A?

China and India are the only two countries giving us a run for our money for entrepreneurs. But not primarily because of the money they can make. The Indians and the Chinese happen to be proud of their countries, plus they have booming economies. While many are educated here in the U.S. they want to be a part of the coming out party for their respective nations. A huge reason is we seem not to want them here. Our immigration system is broken! We should be doing all we can to keep the best and the brightest from China and India here. Unfortunately we are increasingly seen as anti-immigrant.

If we are serious about it, more than a few of our entrepreneurs are of Asian decent. Last weekend for example, Raytheon hosted a contest called MathCount in which mathematically talented 6th, 7th, and 8th graders participated. Approximately 220 or so kids organized into teams from the 50 States, the territories, DOD, and the Department of State.These kids won the right to participate at the national level. And you know what? Damn near every kid in that competition was of Asian decent. In the competition book there was maybe 2 Caucasian kids and one Black kid.

Since math is the language of virtually everything that surrounds us, the thought struck me that I was looking at the future of America during the competition. A long-term survey of these kids showed that the very top competitors tended to go into business.

So the answer is to not close, but to open our doors. We want the best and the brightest right here, not elsewhere.

[arkypete]

Raising taxes never works at any level of government, it only encourages the politicians and government employees to greater spending.
My solution is to take 10 scraps of paper and write odd on five and even on the remaining five.
Put the scaps in a coffee can and shake them up. Find to village idiot, most any one at the White House will do, and have the idiot draw out a scrap of paper. If the paper says "odd", every body working for the federal government whose Social Security number ends in an odd number is laid off immediately. Same works if "even" is drawn.
None of these laid off people can work for the federal government for the next 30 years, and their positions cannot be filled for for 10 years.
If this does not bring the federal budget into balance then we start deleting federal agencies, Education dept, EPA wold be good places to start.

Jim

[VBshooter]

Great Idea, One problem I can see is that it's so simple they'd never use it... At least not until they wasted countless millions on surveys and studies, appointed a support staff of lackey douche bags that will be damn near impossible to fire, and then of course all the usual crap of Affirmative Action,Minority Rights, EEO, and enough red tape to sink a battleship. Maybe then they could effectively screw it up when and if it ever did get out of committee.

[gatlingun6]

Yarddawg"

Keep in mind the national defense is one thing that IS specifically authorized by the Constitution. Can we say that about all of the other things that you mentioned?

Bringing the deficit under control means addressing the following:
Medicare and Medicaid: 21% of fed spending
Social Security: 20%
Defense: 20%
Other Mandatory Spending (Vets compensation, food stamps, unemployment compensation, etc.) 17%

The only thing listed that is authorized by the constitution is defense!

So let's stop posturing, drop the name calling, and get rid of the talking points because none of it solves a thing.
Gat6

I could not agree more! Let's stop the posturing and get down to business. If it's not authorized in the Constitution, IT GOES! Using your numbers, we could cut 58% of the budget and not violate the supreme law of the land.[/quote]
**********************************************************************************

Before I begin to answer, are you saying that the Constitution is prescriptive? i.e. that it must specifically state whatever it is, otherwise it's not Constitutional? Not one federal justice has ever agreed with that view! Not even Ron Paul agrees with that view! You mean John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison and later President George Washington were wrong about the nature of the authority of the Federal Government? The Federalist Papers were all lies?

Article II The Executive Branch, Sec 2 of the Constitution: Civil power over military, Cabinet, pardon power, Appointments: The Executive Branch specifies public ministers, officers of the United States, consuls, Heads of Departments, and Civil officers. The vast majority of Departments, Agencies, Commissions and Offices are not specifically mentioned in the Constitution. Doesn't that presume that laws may be enacted to establish Federal entities not specifically named?

Are you nullifying the necessary and proper or elastic clause of the Constitution? What does Art 1, Sec 8, clause 18 mean? Aren't you rewriting SCOTUS opinions in favor of your own interpretations?

The Constitution makes no mention of the Nuclear Regulatory Agency, FEMA, The SEC, The ICC, The FAA, The FDA, The EPA, The Department of Education, The Center for Disease Control, The FEC, NASA, The CIA, The Peace Corps, The BATF, The BIA, The BLM, etc., etc., etc., and on and on. So some, all, or most are unconstitutional? Do you think SCOTUS opinions can be ignored?

How can we even begin to discuss the budget and what to do if you just rewrote the Constitution to nullify parts of Articles I and II, ignore duly constituted laws, and reject SCOTUS opinions with which you apparently do not agree.

Constitutional or not, do you want Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and Other mandatory spending repealed? Now that's something to debate since they could be repealed by a veto proof Congressional vote. Which announced Presidential Candidates include repeal as a platform issue? The Federal Government owes Social Security recipients, current and future over $2.5 trillion dollars would you default on that debt? Approx 65% of SSI recipients have this payment as their primary source of income. What would you do with them? What happens to those too poor to have health care insurance and TANF recipients?

[gatlingun6]

Raising taxes never works at any level of government, it only encourages the politicians and government employees to greater spending.
My solution is to take 10 scraps of paper and write odd on five and even on the remaining five.
Put the scaps in a coffee can and shake them up. Find to village idiot, most any one at the White House will do, and have the idiot draw out a scrap of paper. If the paper says "odd", every body working for the federal government whose Social Security number ends in an odd number is laid off immediately. Same works if "even" is drawn.
None of these laid off people can work for the federal government for the next 30 years, and their positions cannot be filled for for 10 years.
If this does not bring the federal budget into balance then we start deleting federal agencies, Education dept, EPA wold be good places to start.
*************************************************
This is either a joke or an opinion wholly disconnected from reality. And no it would not bring the Federal Budget into balance, not even close. Did you exempt the military? or did you just disband half or more of the Armed Forces?
Jim

[gatlingun6]

Great Idea, One problem I can see is that it's so simple they'd never use it... At least not until they wasted countless millions on surveys and studies, appointed a support staff of lackey douche bags that will be damn near impossible to fire, and then of course all the usual crap of Affirmative Action,Minority Rights, EEO, and enough red tape to sink a battleship. Maybe then they could effectively screw it up when and if it ever did get out of committee.

**************************************************************************
I wonder if you were just as adamant about it when in violation of the Constitution minorities had no rights? Were even denied the right to vote, or even to marry members of a different race.

[arkypete]

This is either a joke or an opinion wholly disconnected from reality. And no it would not bring the Federal Budget into balance, not even close. Did you exempt the military? or did you just disband half or more of the Armed Forces?

Until one accepts that the federal government is a bigger threat to the continued existance of the USA then the Muslims, China, Etc., everything is impossible and detatched from reality.
The sheer size of the federal government and the overwhelming number of workers makes it's impossible to change and resist using current methods and circumstances.
As far as the military goes there's a percentage that would carry out any order given by those in command including using their weapons on American citizens.

Jim

[gatlingun6]

It's unfortunate that we couldn't have a serious discussion about a serious issue. However, it's not surprising, most of the non-partisan think tanks that conduct budget balancing sessions with us ordinary citizens find the same thing. people just go off into fantasy land and fail to treat the subject with the seriousness it deserves.

Since we have next to nothing relevant to add, I guess we can just sit back and wait for the politicians to come up with solutions. One thing is for sure, if we called and wrote our Representatives or Senators, or candidates and asked them to vote for repeal of 58% of the budget, i.e. Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and Other mandatory spending we would be ignore by both parties, and any one else running for elective office.

I'm out.
Gat6

[arkypete]

Ya know it never ceases to amaze me that, our betters don't cha know, can't come up with anything other then telling us how it won't work and how detatched from reality we are.
Our betters have worked their plans fro decades to no avail, yet any idea not coming from one of the betters is unworthy of consideration. Our betters have been so long with their heads in the sand, allowing this situation to metasize into the terminal stage.
I'm sure that our betters have already written the script for how the death of this nation was the fault of the great unwashed.

Jim

[gatlingun6]

Until one accepts that the federal government is a bigger threat to the continued existance of the USA then the Muslims, China, Etc., everything is impossible and detatched from reality.
The sheer size of the federal government and the overwhelming number of workers makes it's impossible to change and resist using current methods and circumstances.
As far as the military goes there's a percentage that would carry out any order given by those in command including using their weapons on American citizens.

Jim

Jim I'm not sure why these pages drip with pessimism. I'm an optimist: 1. I'm fortunate to live in the greatest country on Earth, and there isn't anything we can't do when we pull together and get serious. As a nation among nations we are unique 2. Aside from those nations that possess the weapons to obliterate the world, it has never been the case that al-Qaeda or any other entity can do more than deliver a pin prick on a national scale. I'm not making light of anyone who has lost or had a loved one, or friend seriously injured since 9/11. On a micro-level the loss is devastating. 3. Despite our sometimes rancorous behavior the trajectory of the U.S. is always towards that more perfect union.

According to numbers I found, the civilian federal work force, excluding the Postal Service, has not seen a quantum increase. Per capita the Federal workforce has actually decreased. In 1960 with a population less than 200 million the civilian workforce was 1.8 million. Spin forward to now we are 308 million strong with a workforce standing at 2.1. There were years since 1980 where the work force was larger. Further, 2/3s of the growth came in the Homeland Security area. Homeland Security agencies and Justice saw major increases. For example, the Border Patrol more than doubled. There are calls for even more increases. Not surprising resulting from 2 wars, the VA added some 77K jobs. Still it can take a year or more to adjudicate a claim. The civilian federal workforce is not the problem.

However, the hidden Federal workforce may be a problem. There's no contractor Czar. It's estimated that there are some 10 million Federal Contractors and Federal grantees! They cost some $400 billion annually. Are we getting our money's worth? Beats me. We see the occasional IG report that says some contractor is ripping us off. And there's a trial every now and then. But I'm betting that some of you who are Federal employees are aware of contractors being paid way more than a comparable civilian.

Again the bulk of this increase is attributed to Home land security and defense issues. Btw this is why I laugh when people like candidate Cain says: Everyone knows that government does not create jobs. I wish someone would followup and ask does he know of any U.S. Corporation that employs 10 million people?

As our governor found out federal budget cuts are not some abstract thing, it means the loss of jobs and usually good paying jobs. Between Baltimore, VA and PA. Northrop Grumman just announced that 200 employees will be released due to budget cuts this Tue. I hope you, or your loved ones are not affected.

obviously there are things the government should not and can't do, so federal Contractors are needed. I don't know the solution except they should be on the table too.

I'm not sure why the last line in the post, but I do believe that overwhelming numbers of the Armed Forces would act when given lawful orders to suppress those, foreign or domestic, who may employ violence in an attempt to destroy the Republic.

it's an odd statement as we approach the Sesquicentennial remembrance of the Civil War. They would be just as loyal and patriotic as the thousands of Southerners who not only rejected secession, but who actively fought their own kin to maintain the Union.

As someone once said we have a choice, we can hang together, or surely we will hang separately.

Gat6

[arkypete]

Gat6
We citizens have allowed the central government to consume ever growing amounts of money, incurring huge amounts of debt, allowed the central government to expand it's control into our day to day lives with no other reason then to give the govt. workers more control, allowed the central government to gain the ability to manipulate the citizens, local and state governments.
The two major parties are both sides of the same coin. Voting for one is like voting for the other. There's no reason to expect any change to occur, by changing the control of both legislative houses and the White House to Republicans.
I, for one, like what T. Jefferson said 'The tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.'
Yes, I'm pessmistic, I see what passes for political leadership on state and national levels, I see that there's enough people to have elected a cretin to the White House, a pack of degenerates on the West Coast electing Pelosi. Then I see what the Republicans have to offer, what's the next step below pessimistic.

Jim

[gatlingun6]

Ya know it never ceases to amaze me that, our betters don't cha know, can't come up with anything other then telling us how it won't work and how detatched from reality we are.
Our betters have worked their plans fro decades to no avail, yet any idea not coming from one of the betters is unworthy of consideration. Our betters have been so long with their heads in the sand, allowing this situation to metasize into the terminal stage.
I'm sure that our betters have already written the script for how the death of this nation was the fault of the great unwashed.

Jim

**********************************************************************************
Because they represent us, they are not our "betters". Some of them like the gang of 6 are working hard to forge a compromise which is the only way any solution will emerge. I'm not one to paint 535 elected officials as rotten to the core. However, the system does stink! Even that's not their problem, it's ours, we the people are the problem. For all the rhetoric and posturing we rarely get off our collective asses and force the issue in reasoned ways.

Those who do vote are locked into a dance about nit noises, such as who can marry whom, what kind of sex is legal, what are we allowed to read and view, and inserting ourselves between women, their families and doctors, whether we are God's chosen nation and on and on. Anyone who disagrees is demonized, he is the enemy, and loaded up with whatever label one thinks of. To have our way with these issues a few of us are even willing to kill to make a point.

In the meantime this explosion in the national debt is a recent phenomenon. For 30 years, beginning with the Reagan administration we have acted as if deficits do not matter. In every year with the exception of 3 we have increased the deficit. The reasons are easy to see. Every President but the last Bush and President Obama have closed loopholes and adjusted taxes upwards when necessary. Reagan raised taxes and fees several times when it was obvious we needed to.

President Clinton raised taxes too. Then came President Bush who employed an absolute ideology that whatever ailed the nation tax cuts were the solution. There is never ever a good reason to raise taxes. Even when you add a multi-billion dollar program to Medicare, Part D. you can't raise taxes or adjust anything else to pay for it. You won't even allow the government to negotiate the price of drugs like other government entities do. Then we fight 2 wars and ramp up Home land security. Do you go to the America public, the 99% that have no skin in the game, to pay for any of that? Nope not to worry the 1% of the best and brightest and their families willingly put their asses on the line doing tour after tour.

And what's the sacrifice for the rest of us? None, nothing, nada. OK maybe we were encouraged to buy a "Support the Troops" bumper sticker, and donate to the USO, or send a package. Otherwise we too were encouraged to deficit spend, and all too many of us did just that! We were told what's the problem, if you have a home it's like your personal ATM, Ka-ching, buy, buy, buy.

I remember a friend who was offered a jumbo loan that ballooned in a few years when the Real Estate Market was White hot! He asked, what happens when payment is due? The agent cheerfully said no problem, you just refinance take your profit and you're safe. Fortunately, he wasn't buying that nonsense and pulled the plug on the deal. What's the house worth now? Less than half the asking price back then.

Despite all this I'm confident that a solution will come, and it will be a compromise with some things that one side or the other will not like. But that's just the way the Founders intended it.

Gat6

[gatlingun6]

Gat6
We citizens have allowed the central government to consume ever growing amounts of money, incurring huge amounts of debt, allowed the central government to expand it's control into our day to day lives with no other reason then to give the govt. workers more control, allowed the central government to gain the ability to manipulate the citizens, local and state governments.
The two major parties are both sides of the same coin. Voting for one is like voting for the other. There's no reason to expect any change to occur, by changing the control of both legislative houses and the White House to Republicans.
I, for one, like what T. Jefferson said 'The tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.'
Yes, I'm pessmistic, I see what passes for political leadership on state and national levels, I see that there's enough people to have elected a cretin to the White House, a pack of degenerates on the West Coast electing Pelosi. Then I see what the Republicans have to offer, what's the next step below pessimistic.

Jim

********************************************************************
Jim I'm not sure what to say except that violence is not the answer, and that we take T Jefferson out of context when we use the blood of tyrant's quote. Jefferson who was in Paris having a wonderful time did not have the same sense of urgency as those men who met in Philadelphia. They knew the Articles of Confederation, with its weak central government spelled the doom of the fledgling country. Early America was barely governable.

Shay's rebellion was the topic at hand and the writer pointed to the fact that the Confederacy was unable to do anything to put down the revolt, hence the need for a strong Federal government. TJ was of the opinion that Shay's rebellion was virtually nothing, just a bunch of misguided citizens who needed to be educated. And that educated citizens would understand. Besides as TJ saw it the so-called revolt was easily put down with little loss of life. Hence the framers over reacted. When TJ realized it might cost him a job in a President Washington's administration, he didn't stand behind that statement.

Oddly enough Thomas Jefferson was such a prolific writer and often contradictory he is claimed by virtually every political ideology in the U.S. But the one thing we know about President Jefferson was that he in no way tolerated even a hint of revolt. Without a SCOTUS opinion Aaron Burr would have been locked up without recourse.

If there is some aspect of Federal action that you abhor, I suggest that you organize PEACEABLE protest. If anyone uses violence against the Federal Government they will not succeed. If multiple States with an organized Army and Navy could not succeed against the Federal Government neither can a cabal of private citizens.

As for the current political parties, if you don't agree with their actions or platforms, join another party with which you agree, and work from the lowest to the highest level to elect officials to your liking.

One thing we all can do is demand transparency from those who contribute to any political campaign or political organization. SCOTUS has opined that money is the equivalent of speech and corporations are the equivalent of individuals, so they may spend freely on political campaigns without limits. That opinion is not likely to change. What SCOTUS did not opine was that the speaker, i.e. the one donating the money had a right to anonymity under the 1st Amendment. So we should demand that ALL political contributions be transparent. If a voice speaker has no right of secrecy when making a political speech, neither should a monetary contributor.

Gat6

[gunderwood]

LOL, trolls spouting contradictory non-sense...

[jim100]

LOL, trolls spouting contradictory non-sense...

+1 Interesting points of view.