Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

Vahunter wrote:Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

That would be something exciting to see...hypothetically speaking of course...

wylde007 wrote:I support anyone who wants to live their life the way they want, regardless of the character of the regime they currently live under.

Democracy is dangerous. I hope the people of Egypt figure that out before they install a new government on that particular model.

+1

I would just add to live how they want that they can do so as long as what they want isn't to harm me, but I get what you're saying.

wally626 wrote:Although raising up against oppressive governments is good, it can be really bad if the replacement government is worse. The Russian Czar was over turned by socialists, but the communist took advantage of the turmoil to seize power and resulted in the death and enslavement of many many more people than the old government would have not to mention the deaths in WWII. The Shah of Iran was a despot, but his over throw resulted in the death and enslavement of many more people than the old regime including many deaths in the Iraq-Iran war. Iraq officially attacked Iran first in that war but it is was to stop Iran from fomenting rebellion among the Shiites is Iraq.

The big warning sign to me in Egypt is the fact that the major rioting started after Friday prayers. The religious leaders are in-support of this, maybe for good reasons, but maybe to install a religious dictatorship. It is probably too late to anything now anyway, hopefully the new government will remain secular and establish a more free and open country.

If the Muslim Brotherhood wins its fight to install a Islamic State the losers will be Women, and religious minorities of all types, especially the Copts.

Yes, revolutions are messy and dangerous business. Once they are started, you don't know where or how they will end up. Our own Constitution was a little bit of that.

gfost1 wrote:Thanx, Travis,

wylde007 wrote:Hey, George: you are not the only one in world running the "what next" scenario through your head.

And it does not make you "unpatriotic". If anything, it makes you more patriotic because maybe, just maybe, you're thinking about what you may need to do when (not "if", my friends, "when") the SHTF here.

God, family, self. Government is an institution of those who believe it is someone else's responsibility to tell them what to do.

The rule of law was meant to restrict and inhibit government. Government has learned to subvert the civil authority in this country (beginning with Executive Order) and has ignored the will of the people for far too long.

I would consider you unpatriotic if you DIDN'T ponder your role in the coming apocalypse.

I just don't want to be mistaken for one of those "blame America" types. But wrong is wrong, ignorance, greed and vanity notwithstanding.

Regards,

George

+1 Travis. Asking questions is how we learn, but that gets beat out of us by the government run education system.

The "blame America" first nonsense is how certain right wing talk show hosts shut up opposition, nothing else. I find it funny because that is more or less exactly what they are blaming the left for. Following either side blindly is a problem. It is alright to question SS, Medicare, etc. on the right, but just don't dare question the war on drugs, military deployments, weapons development, the fake capitalism, etc.

America is the greatest country on earth, but it is far from perfect (and never will be perfect). However, the classical liberal in me says we must keep trying to improve and part of that is having a honest discussion about what we did both right and wrong. Both sides deem that inadvisable because after all it was they who made those mistakes. It isn't good for retaining power to allow the people to ask too many questions; just enough to make them think they are in control and have a say.

If the current Egypian government come or goes isn't a major issue. If this sort of 'change' spreds to other Muslim governments, that will be the issue and a major problem for the world.
The Muslim religion and culture has not progressed much beyond the 14th-15th century, except for aqquiring weapons as a means to destrying the infidels and imposing the will of what ever thug is ruling them.
Modern medicine and sanitation has not been kind to the Muslim countries, insuring there's more people, mostly men to survive to adulthood. These males have no jobs, no chance of finding jobs, no chance of marrying.
I, for one, can not think of a Muslim country would come close a western nation in infrastructure, cultural amenities, life style, the things we take for granted here and in Europe.
If more Muslim nations are over thrown it won't take long for Israel to be attacked and destroyed and Europe will be next on the list.

Jim

The first thing we should understand is that every major event in the world is NOT about us. This Egyptian uprising is one such event, it has nothing to do with us, or Israel. It's about the Egyptian people. The best we can do is what we are doing. We are not going to dictate to the Egyptians, we are not going to install the next leader, This is not a coup of our doing as happened in 1952 with the Free Officers. Whatever we do to assist the transition should be done quietly and out of view. Our public pronouncements so far are just about right.

Someone asked why do we give the Egyptian military $1.3 billion annually. I can think of several reasons. 1. It was a part of the deal to get Egypt and Israel to sign the peace agreement. So the military aid packages to Israel and Egypt are connected. 2. It gives us influence with the Egyptian military. Out of sight there has been constant talks between the Pentagon and the Egyptian military to tamp down violence.

3. This reason deserves a paragraph of its own. The military aid going to Egypt is good for business in the U.S. Almost all of the $1.3 billion conveyed to Egypt has strings attached. Lots of guys here are ex-military so I'm sure you recognized that almost all of the tanks and armored personnel carriers you see on TV around that square were made in the good old USA. Likewise the jets overhead, and some of the helicopters, again made in the USA. For example we have sold them over a 1,000 M1 and M60A3 tanks, all kinds of M113 type APCs, thousands of artillery pieces, anti-tank missiles, F-16 Aircraft, 100s of thousands of M16s and M4s. And don't forget associated and allied equipment. Remember those tear gas canisters marked "made in the USA"? The International arms market has in the past reached some $30 plus billion dollars. I'm betting, that as large as the membership is on this site, that some of you owe your jobs to the international arms sales, either as prime contractors, sub-contractors, or tertiary contractors.

As far as the Muslim Brotherhood, I don't see any chance they could take over the government. The Brotherhood does not have the support of most, not even close. Sunni clerics do not have the power that Shia clerics have as in Iran. Egypt has no history of rule by clerics. Almost 75% of Egyptians are 30 or under, they are the power behind this revolt. They are not revolting to replace a secular dictator with religious dictators. They want what we have been preaching in Egypt since the dawn of the American Republic.

Will it be messy? You bet it will. Will there be unexpected twists and turns? Yep? Will Egypt remained aligned with the West? I can't see how they could do anything else and survive.

Instead of the Muslim Brotherhood we had better keep our eye on the Army. Mubarak in one way or another is finished. It's just a matter of time before Mubarak understand that.

The institution we had better watch is the Egyptian Army. They seem to be trying to play on both sides. Make no mistake in a democracy with transparency, the Army stands to lose more than any other institution. The question really is: What will the Army do?

Gat6

Having just watched President Mubarak speech, I sincerely hope that the protesters do take the bait. I agree with with Fareed Zakaria, that Mubarak's speech was designed to provoke a violent reaction. He wants the protesters to resort to violence. That will give him a pretext to strike back at the protesters. And somehow, in his twisted mind see himself as Egypt's saviors.

All I can say is please, please do not take the bait, at all costs continue your non-violent protests. Bring the country to a halt with strikes in every sector. Do not, do not give this mad man a pretest to resort to violence.

Gat6

Vahunter wrote:Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

Unwanted? unwanted by whom? Most of the recent polling shows that the majority of Americans do not want the AHCA repealed. In fact, they want it improved, not repealed.

Gat6

@ Jim
That was a good breakdown and the only thing that I would say was that I think that our leaders should just sit back right now and not stick our nose into it with anymore comments. I think that they have said enough.

gatlingun6 wrote:

Vahunter wrote:Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

Unwanted? unwanted by whom? Most of the recent polling shows that the majority of Americans do not want the AHCA repealed. In fact, they want it improved, not repealed.

Gat6

gatlingun6 wrote:

Vahunter wrote:Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

Unwanted? unwanted by whom? Most of the recent polling shows that the majority of Americans do not want the AHCA repealed. In fact, they want it improved, not repealed.

Gat6

Ok here is the latest poll

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 58% of Likely U.S. Voters at least somewhat favor repeal of the health care law, with 44% who Strongly Favor it. Thirty-seven percent (37%) are opposed to repeal, including 26% who Strongly Oppose. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... h_care_law

gatlingun6 wrote:That will give him a pretext to strike back at the protesters. And somehow, in his twisted mind see himself as Egypt's saviors.

Now why does THAT sound familiar?

Just like old times around here...

SSDD

Taggure wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:

Vahunter wrote:Egypt is what the US could look like the next time our POTUS slams us with an unwanted bill like health care.

Unwanted? unwanted by whom? Most of the recent polling shows that the majority of Americans do not want the AHCA repealed. In fact, they want it improved, not repealed.

Gat6

Ok here is the latest poll

A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 58% of Likely U.S. Voters at least somewhat favor repeal of the health care law, with 44% who Strongly Favor it. Thirty-seven percent (37%) are opposed to repeal, including 26% who Strongly Oppose. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... h_care_law

The Rasmussen poll you quoted is correct; however, it's also skewed. Note that the people polled were likely voters. So it's true to that extent, however, there are numerous other polls that used random samples. Both the associated press and Washington Post ABC poll went did that. The AP poll found that only 25% supported full repeal. Strong opposition stood at 30%. 40% expressed support for the law, whereas 41% opposed it.

The ABC/WaPo poll found that 45% Support the law and 50% Opposed it. However, when you drill down among the 50% they found: 33% want a complete repeal, 35% want a partial repeal, and 30% want to wait and see. When you drill down further you find the numbers skewed even more because many of those who support repeal did so because they think the law did not go far enough. These were truly random samples. At best polling is confused and inconclusive.

Further, when you ask people line by line, or don't even mention the law and simply ask about particular provisions, more people want to keep the provision rather than repeal it.

Is the AHCA perfect? Of course not, no legislation is ever perfect. What we usually do is make fixes as we gain experience with new legislation. Repealing a law of this size is unprecedented before all the provisions take effect. Especially when nothing is there to take its place. If people polled are worried about cost containment, how can they possibly believe that going back to the previous system where costs were clearly out of control would solve anything.

It seems that the individual mandate bothers a lot of people especially conservatives. Of course conservatives talk about individual responsibility more than any other group. What's more responsible than procuring health insurance? the assumption is, unless you die suddenly, at some point all of us will require medical care that's beyond the ability of 95% of us to pay for it. To not have health insurance is sheer gambling that you won't need it. However, it's gambling with the knowledge that if you lose, your fellow citizens will make up for it, and pay your medical bills. How responsible is that?

If we are determined to keep our fractured health care system that is based on private for profit health insurance providers, i.e. employer based, and private for anyone outside that, but not enrolled in a government provided program no economic model is sustainable without everyone enrolled in the system.

Gat6

Having said that, the individual mandate has hardship exemptions where no fines would be assessed if one did not purchase health insurance. The hardship exemptions is why the AHCA is expected to cover approx 98%, not 100% of Americans.

I take the President at his word when he says he is willing to listen to anyone who has ideas to improve the AHCA.

gatlingun6 wrote:The Rasmussen poll you quoted is correct; however, it's also skewed. Note that the people polled were likely voters. So it's true to that extent, however, there are numerous other polls that used random samples. Both the associated press and Washington Post ABC poll went did that. The AP poll found that only 25% supported full repeal. Strong opposition stood at 30%. 40% expressed support for the law, whereas 41% opposed it.

The ABC/WaPo poll found that 45% Support the law and 50% Opposed it. However, when you drill down among the 50% they found: 33% want a complete repeal, 35% want a partial repeal, and 30% want to wait and see. When you drill down further you find the numbers skewed even more because many of those who support repeal did so because they think the law did not go far enough. These were truly random samples.

So you are saying that a lot of people who won't vote or can't vote because they are ineligibly want Obama care?

gatlingun6 wrote:At best polling is confused and inconclusive.

Actually it is very much a statistical science. The problem of course is that non-professionals like the ABC/WaPo get it completely wrong because they have a political bias or point to prove. The polls done by Rasmussen and other professional polling agencies are usually spot on. I.e. they are right way more than they are wrong. Can't say that about "news" polls.

gatlingun6 wrote:I take the President at his word when he says he is willing to listen to anyone who has ideas to improve the AHCA.

By improve he means more government control. Also, you believe this because of his absolutely wonderful bipartisanship when they passed Obama care right? Hook, line, and sinker.

Now I know why I like you DK. You and I think alike. Keep all of OUR money right here where it belongs. Let some other country help other country's in need and let us stop being the Big Brother that always comes to the rescue and come to OUR OWN rescue and help our AMERICAN people and not people that jump borders etc.
Bill

Confucious say:

"May you live in interesting times."

Mission Accomplished. Any time there is uprising/unrest/rock-throwing in the middle east? Gas goes up. Much like when Katrina hit, and knocked out the refineries. Gas went up past $2, and never came back.

Never mind the refineries are back online, never mind that more fuel is coming in, the price... has not... come...back...down.

The definition of a "Scam" is "you pay more/give more for something of lesser/no value by means of manipulation".

Well, I'm scammed by the Guv'mint, and other entities, EVERY...DAY!

The old saying is "You get what you pay for" and Big Oil has bought and sold our politicians to get their way for years..We as consumers get the shaft each and every time. Big Oil doesn't worry because people in this country are not about to stop driving at any price...