Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Vahunter wrote:Sure do wish you'd post your buisness so we could add it to the firearm unfriendly list.

+1

I'll bet he's a shrink in the W. Va border, by his own words. LOL

OK, his business description was shown on his profile. I'll not go to Wise county to investigate further.

Let's be careful. We are on the verge of berating him for pleasures sake. Yes, most of us don't agree with his position and there is an outstanding question concerning his logic or rational for putting up such a sign, but let's not degrade the thread into attacking the poster.

I'm still interesting in understanding the OPs rational.

gunderwood wrote:Let's be careful. We are on the verge of berating him for pleasures sake. Yes, most of us don't agree with his position and there is an outstanding question concerning his logic or rational for putting up such a sign, but let's not degrade the thread into attacking the poster.

Indeed, lets not...

gunderwood wrote:Let's be careful. We are on the verge of berating him for pleasures sake. Yes, most of us don't agree with his position and there is an outstanding question concerning his logic or rational for putting up such a sign, but let's not degrade the thread into attacking the poster.

I'm still interesting in understanding the OPs rational.

+ and +, although that W. Va. border thing did seem funny to this old hillbilly.

gunderwood wrote:
I'm still interesting in understanding the OPs rational.

I think I have it figured out. Bad guy has his mind made up to rob, murder or whatever. He get's to the door of the buisness and see's the no guns allowed sign. He turns and runs away,scared out of his mind. A while later he's telling his buddies about his plan but say's " That place has a no guns allowed sign posted and I ain't about to be hung with a trespassing charge by carrying my piece in there".

WRW wrote:

gunderwood wrote:Let's be careful. We are on the verge of berating him for pleasures sake. Yes, most of us don't agree with his position and there is an outstanding question concerning his logic or rational for putting up such a sign, but let's not degrade the thread into attacking the poster.

I'm still interesting in understanding the OPs rational.

+ and +, although that W. Va. border thing did seem funny to this old hillbilly.

It was purely meant as funny, we all know they don't have shrinks in W. Va.

dorminWS wrote:
I believe my sign will get rid of all but the crazies. The disgruntled, the troublemakers, those nursing a grudge - - there's a lot of folks like that that care enough about staying out of trouble and/or keeping a CCW permit NOT to get in trouble by breaking the law; and they'll stay away, which means they won't show up, get started arguing, and lose control. I think that's a significant reduction in the risk of serious trouble. The ones who are just crazy or hellbent on doing mayhem and/or murder won't be discouraged. There's nothing any of us can do about them; except be ready.

concealed means concealed bud. trust me, i won't be paying no mind to your sign

Vahunter wrote:

gunderwood wrote:
I'm still interesting in understanding the OPs rational.

I think I have it figured out. Bad guy has his mind made up to rob, murder or whatever. He get's to the door of the buisness and see's the no guns allowed sign. He turns and runs away,scared out of his mind. A while later he's telling his buddies about his plan but say's " That place has a no guns allowed sign posted and I ain't about to be hung with a trespassing charge by carrying my piece in there".

Maybe the bad guy does not want the additional charge of trespassing on top of robbery and murder? That extra 14 days for trespassing on top of a sentence of life without parole will change his mind?

Gunderwood posted:
........................................................................
No problem, but it still doesn't answer the question we were asking. Why do you think your sign has any impact on someone who is looking to harm another person? Anyone looking to do that won't care about your sign. Or put a different way, your sign only keeps out people who care that you posted it and those aren't the people you should be worrying about.
.........................................................................
I said right up front that if they were hell-bent on doing mahem or murder, there was NOTHING I or anybody else could do except be ready.

But that's not who the signs are aimed at.

I also said that the woods are full (in my opinion) of folks who are capable of getting into an argument and pulling a gun when they get all cranked up when that was not what they originally intended. That's who I think I'm weeding out with my sign.

Based upon my years of laying out in places I didn't have no business in, I think it's a worthwile exercise. If I'm wrong, I've wasted a few sheets of paper, a minute or two and some printer toner.

All in all brother, better safe than sorry. Maybe an ammendment to the poster I would add would be: "No firearms allowed, unless legally concealed! Period" this way the sign only applies to anyone illegally carrying on the premises and other law abiding carriers who conceal legally would still do business with you.
IMHO, Josh

dorminWS wrote:Gunderwood posted:
........................................................................
No problem, but it still doesn't answer the question we were asking. Why do you think your sign has any impact on someone who is looking to harm another person? Anyone looking to do that won't care about your sign. Or put a different way, your sign only keeps out people who care that you posted it and those aren't the people you should be worrying about.
.........................................................................
I said right up front that if they were hell-bent on doing mahem or murder, there was NOTHING I or anybody else could do except be ready.

But that's not who the signs are aimed at.

I also said that the woods are full (in my opinion) of folks who are capable of getting into an argument and pulling a gun when they get all cranked up when that was not what they originally intended. That's who I think I'm weeding out with my sign.

Based upon my years of laying out in places I didn't have no business in, I think it's a worthwile exercise. If I'm wrong, I've wasted a few sheets of paper, a minute or two and some printer toner.

Exactly the point. You say there was "NOTHING I or anybody else could do except be ready". But since you don't want others to "be ready" by disarming them, I look at that sign and walk away, and spend my money somewhere else. Being ready is worth more to me than your sign, so I won't be there.

If someone does get "all cranked up" and takes you out first shot, who's going to step in and protect the mother and her unborn child in the next isle over? Like I said - I won't be there. And from the sounds of it, a lot of the other folks who routinely carry won't be there, either.

dorminWS wrote:the woods are full (in my opinion) of folks who are capable of getting into an argument and pulling a gun when they get all cranked up when that was not what they originally intended. That's who I think I'm weeding out with my sign.

the woods are also full (in My opinion) of folks who are capable of getting into an argument and pulling a knife to cut you, or pulling a baseball bat to whack someone's head off. Are you going to forbid these items as well?

What if someone comes into your establishment carrying concealed, and fails to notice your sign. How are you going to know this person is carrying?

Honestly, I'm not trying to give you a hard time about this. As I've said before, it's your business, you can do as you please. It's just, to me, your logic does not make sense.

davasmith wrote:All in all brother, better safe than sorry. Maybe an ammendment to the poster I would add would be: "No firearms allowed, unless legally concealed! Period" this way the sign only applies to anyone illegally carrying on the premises and other law abiding carriers who conceal legally would still do business with you.
IMHO, Josh

clearly the thread starter thinks he's better then the rest of us...

dorminWS wrote:Gunderwood posted:
........................................................................
No problem, but it still doesn't answer the question we were asking. Why do you think your sign has any impact on someone who is looking to harm another person? Anyone looking to do that won't care about your sign. Or put a different way, your sign only keeps out people who care that you posted it and those aren't the people you should be worrying about.
.........................................................................
I said right up front that if they were hell-bent on doing mahem or murder, there was NOTHING I or anybody else could do except be ready.

But that's not who the signs are aimed at.

I also said that the woods are full (in my opinion) of folks who are capable of getting into an argument and pulling a gun when they get all cranked up when that was not what they originally intended. That's who I think I'm weeding out with my sign.

Based upon my years of laying out in places I didn't have no business in, I think it's a worthwile exercise. If I'm wrong, I've wasted a few sheets of paper, a minute or two and some printer toner.

Ok, good we agree that the sign does nothing to stop someone intent on crime. The follow on question is: "Are CHP holders the people on the edge who would do as you describe or not?" If CHP holders are statistically not likely to wig out as you are worried about, then the sign isn't doing anything useful. Remember that in VA, only CHP holders and select government officials can conceal carry their firearms. Anyone else doing so it already committing a crime far worse than trespassing. VCDL has addressed this issue and so have most other pro-gun groups: CHP holders are much less likely to commit a crime than the average population. Here is one such reference: http://www.gunfacts.info

CHP holders are not saints. However, they are statistically less likely to commit any crime than your average customer. We aren't talking 20% or even 50% less likely either. Try 3, 4, 5, 10x less likely. Furthermore, there has been extremely few wigging out incident with CHP holders. If you do a little bit of research you will find that the scenario you painted virtually never happens. On the other hand, what you describe does happen frequently with people who legally aren't allowed to carry a gun your sign not withstanding.

There have been and will be incidents with CHP holders. It is a given. However, they are very unlikely to commit the crime you describe. You are more likely to be helped by a CHP holder from a violent criminal than harmed by one in your business. Yes, there are people "on the edge," but they statistically aren't lawfully carrying a firearm. As a business owner you must decide how you want to run things. The statistics say you are better off letting CHP holders lawfully carry in your business as they are more likely to help than harm you. The sign does nothing for those intent on crime or carrying unlawfully already. Realize that there are lots of businesses around and there are people who will find someone else to deal with when they see your sign. The odds say you should let CHP holders with their firearms in your business like all other lawful customers, but that is only something you can decide.

IMHO, putting up a no firearms sign is like building a bunker in the backyard for the end of the world, but being generally so unprepared that you have to rush to the store every-time we get 2" of snow.

{/quote}
Ok, good we agree that the sign does nothing to stop someone intent on crime. The follow on question is: "Are CHP holders the people on the edge who would do as you describe or not?" If CHP holders are statistically not likely to wig out as you are worried about, then the sign isn't doing anything useful. Remember that in VA, only CHP holders and select government officials can conceal carry their firearms. Anyone else doing so it already committing a crime far worse than trespassing. VCDL has addressed this issue and so have most other pro-gun groups: CHP holders are much less likely to commit a crime than the average population. Here is one such reference: http://www.gunfacts.info

CHP holders are not saints. However, they are statistically less likely to commit any crime than your average customer. We aren't talking 20% or even 50% less likely either. Try 3, 4, 5, 10x less likely. Furthermore, there has been extremely few wigging out incident with CHP holders. If you do a little bit of research you will find that the scenario you painted virtually never happens. On the other hand, what you describe does happen frequently with people who legally aren't allowed to carry a gun your sign not withstanding.

There have been and will be incidents with CHP holders. It is a given. However, they are very unlikely to commit the crime you describe. You are more likely to be helped by a CHP holder from a violent criminal than harmed by one in your business. Yes, there are people "on the edge," but they statistically aren't lawfully carrying a firearm. As a business owner you must decide how you want to run things. The statistics say you are better off letting CHP holders lawfully carry in your business as they are more likely to help than harm you. The sign does nothing for those intent on crime or carrying unlawfully already. Realize that there are lots of businesses around and there are people who will find someone else to deal with when they see your sign. The odds say you should let CHP holders with their firearms in your business like all other lawful customers, but that is only something you can decide.

IMHO, putting up a no firearms sign is like building a bunker in the backyard for the end of the world, but being generally so unprepared that you have to rush to the store every-time we get 2" of snow.{/quote}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gunderwood, you hadn't orta try to hold me responsible for your assumptions. I plainly stated at the outset that someone intent on crime won't heed a sign. I never said CCW permit holders were more likely to be involved in incidents. In fact, I said that if they have a CCW, that alone will make them less likely to cause trouble because they would not want to take a chance on losing it. My assumption was that even if they weren't as stable as most CCW holders, if they cared enough to get a CCW permit they wouls take some care not to do somethuing to jeopardize it.

The "unstable element" I was speaking of might be comprised of a few CCW holders, but I would expect most of them would not be.

But don't ya'll lose too much sleep; my business is not a retail one open to the public, so 999 out of 1,000 of you will never see the threshold anyway.

As for the allegation that I think I'm better than everybody else, well, that just ain't so. I'm no better than anybody else. I do have fellow humans, however who are not quite as smart as those of us who are average, and I ain't gonna apologize for being aware of it.

dorminWS wrote: Gunderwood, you hadn't orta try to hold me responsible for your assumptions.

Indeed...no one should hold another to their own assumptions.

dorminWS wrote:{/quote}
Ok, good we agree that the sign does nothing to stop someone intent on crime. The follow on question is: "Are CHP holders the people on the edge who would do as you describe or not?" If CHP holders are statistically not likely to wig out as you are worried about, then the sign isn't doing anything useful. Remember that in VA, only CHP holders and select government officials can conceal carry their firearms. Anyone else doing so it already committing a crime far worse than trespassing. VCDL has addressed this issue and so have most other pro-gun groups: CHP holders are much less likely to commit a crime than the average population. Here is one such reference: http://www.gunfacts.info

CHP holders are not saints. However, they are statistically less likely to commit any crime than your average customer. We aren't talking 20% or even 50% less likely either. Try 3, 4, 5, 10x less likely. Furthermore, there has been extremely few wigging out incident with CHP holders. If you do a little bit of research you will find that the scenario you painted virtually never happens. On the other hand, what you describe does happen frequently with people who legally aren't allowed to carry a gun your sign not withstanding.

There have been and will be incidents with CHP holders. It is a given. However, they are very unlikely to commit the crime you describe. You are more likely to be helped by a CHP holder from a violent criminal than harmed by one in your business. Yes, there are people "on the edge," but they statistically aren't lawfully carrying a firearm. As a business owner you must decide how you want to run things. The statistics say you are better off letting CHP holders lawfully carry in your business as they are more likely to help than harm you. The sign does nothing for those intent on crime or carrying unlawfully already. Realize that there are lots of businesses around and there are people who will find someone else to deal with when they see your sign. The odds say you should let CHP holders with their firearms in your business like all other lawful customers, but that is only something you can decide.

IMHO, putting up a no firearms sign is like building a bunker in the backyard for the end of the world, but being generally so unprepared that you have to rush to the store every-time we get 2" of snow.{/quote}
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Gunderwood, you hadn't orta try to hold me responsible for your assumptions. I plainly stated at the outset that someone intent on crime won't heed a sign. I never said CCW permit holders were more likely to be involved in incidents. In fact, I said that if they have a CCW, that alone will make them less likely to cause trouble because they would not want to take a chance on losing it. My assumption was that even if they weren't as stable as most CCW holders, if they cared enough to get a CCW permit they wouls take some care not to do somethuing to jeopardize it.

The "unstable element" I was speaking of might be comprised of a few CCW holders, but I would expect most of them would not be.

But don't ya'll lose too much sleep; my business is not a retail one open to the public, so 999 out of 1,000 of you will never see the threshold anyway.

As for the allegation that I think I'm better than everybody else, well, that just ain't so. I'm no better than anybody else. I do have fellow humans, however who are not quite as smart as those of us who are average, and I ain't gonna apologize for being aware of it.

I wasn't holding you for any assumptions. I was trying to cover all the bases with you. The underlined is the key point I was trying to get you to realize. That is the only good thing your sign accomplishes and in return you have created a place where if something goes down there is no help from lawful CHP holders and a place where criminals intent on crime know that the victims are unarmed. That kind of thinking is exactly why mass murders go to schools and other gun free zones. It has nothing to do with guns, it is about helpless victims. E.g. China had a spat of mass murders who went to their schools with machetes and hacked children up.

That's all we were trying to point out to you. You are worried and put up a sign to "protect" yourself against an extremely rare event. You are orders of magnitude more likely to face a violent criminal than a CHP holder gone wild. You are far more likely to need their assistance against a criminal than to be harmed by a CHP holder turned criminal. The odds don't add up, which is why we question your logic and why I bothered to walk through it with you.

Gunderwood wrote" You are worried and put up a sign to "protect" yourself against an extremely rare event. You are orders of magnitude more likely to face a violent criminal than a CHP holder gone wild. You are far more likely to need their assistance against a criminal than to be harmed by a CHP holder turned criminal."

Hey, bud- - -

Let me say it again: You're preaching to the choir - - I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!!!! I'm not worried about a CHP holder doing that (although small the possibility exists). I'm worried about all those mouthbreathing illiterates out there who don't have a CHP that do have a gun. You don't imagine that everyone who packs a gun has his CCW permit all buttoned down and legal, do you?