Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Of course, my own property is well posted and fenced for the protection of people who might be tempted to hunt there. I say "for the protection" because I'm color blind, and can't tell blaze orange from grass green or bambi brown, and I'm apt to shoot at something that's that "color" if it looks like bambi to me.

Ironbear wrote:In 2004, in Wisconsin, a group of hunters confronted an individual hunting on private property. Before it was all over, five of the group were dead, one died later, and two were left injured.


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I was wondering if this would come up... if he has an AK, definitely leave him alone!

Seriously, the hunter is not a "tresspasser" until they landowner has served tresspass papers on the named indiviual (that particular hunter). If he tresspasses after that, it's still a LE matter, to be resolved through the courts.

IANAL , and have been wrong several times...

Palladin wrote:.....Seriously, the hunter is not a "tresspasser" until they landowner has served tresspass papers on the named indiviual (that particular hunter). If he tresspasses after that, it's still a LE matter, to be resolved through the courts....

Begging your pardon, but that's not the case in the county I live in. The local ordnance here says if you're on private property and you don't have documentation of permission on your person, you're trespassing. It's just that simple.

This is state wide for Va.

§ 18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties (top)

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1- 253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

Looks to me like the trespass occurs after the forbidden part, and the individual must be named. If you want it to stick, you'd better have an order. At least that's been my experience - I don't think you can nail every Tom, Dick and Harry that happens to stumble across your property with a Class 1 misdemeanor just because it was posted.

...but then again, I could be wrong

No, you don't need to name the individual. You could simply post a "Private Property, No Trespassing" sign. If you see someone on your property thereafter, you can simply order them to leave. If they remain, it's trespassing. I still prefer the "No Trespassing. Violators will be shot, survivors will be shot again" sign.

I don't know all the details, but I was told of a Miss Eva in Spotsylvania that worked out a deal with Game and inland Fisheries to be deputized so she could arrest trespassers (part of a lot longer story). I doubt that could be done today.

Palladin wrote:I was wondering if this would come up... if he has an AK, definitely leave him alone!

I think the fellow in that case had a SKS...

Jim wrote:If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by such persons or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to §§ 16.1-253, 16.1- 253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1, 19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or § 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to § 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of §§ 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.

The important parts of this code section are... "goes upon or remains upon" ... "after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian or other person lawfully in charge thereof"

If you inform a person that they are not welcome they must IMMEDIATELY leave. If they fail to do so, at that moment a trespass has occurred.

If it's posted property whether you tell someone to leave or not they can be charged with trespassing. Last hunting season when the game warden couldn't find the owner of a truck while I was there, he asked me IF he could write a ticket. I told him as long as I wasn't on the recieving end of the ticket I didn't care. The way he descibed it to me a year or so ago if he caught someone trespassing he couldn't write a ticket unless I okayed it first. I had a deputy that refused to charge a guy with trespassing because he had written permission from a man who had been dead for five years. If you want results call a possum cop they don't screw around.

Diomed wrote:

Palladin wrote:I was wondering if this would come up... if he has an AK, definitely leave him alone!

I think the fellow in that case had a SKS...

That is correct. It was an SKS.

In Virginia, signs work. Unless they say, "POSTED", in huge letters. That only announces the fact that you put up a sign. Big deal. If it says (conspicuously), "NO TRESPASSING", and you put enough of them around to be able to say that no one coming in could have really missed 'em, that's good enough. There's one case, I think I made reference to in an earlier post, in which the Sup. Ct. said that "Customer Parking Only" was a good enough sign for the misdemeanor conviction.

By the way, I assume everyone knows that civil trespass is different in content, as well as procedurally, from criminal trespass. If someone steps on your dirt, thinking it's his own dirt, really believing it's his own dirt, and you never ever told him not to, nor did you put up any signs, fencing, or anything, you can file suit against him and get an injunction ordering him to stay off. Violation of the order is both contempt of court and criminal trespass.

user wrote:By the way, I assume everyone knows that civil trespass is different in content, as well as procedurally, from criminal trespass.

It would probably be helpful to explain them.

I had a rare chance to speak with a Va. game warden yesterday. I happened to stop at the local quik stop and he was filling his dept. truck with gas.
I asked him if he had a minute for a question and he was very congenial. "Sure! How can I help you?" I told him about this thread. He said "If your property is posted with signs and someone other than the land owner or legal tenant is on it, they must have written permission to be there. Otherwise, they're AUTOMATICALLY trespassing. "What does the sign have to say?" He said any sign that shows they're not welcome without permission. Posted, no trespassing, no hunting, whatever. "So, if someone is one my property without permission, I don't have to tell them to leave?" "No, and I don't have to tell them either. If they don't have a letter of permission in their pocket, they're going with me. Now, if they're trying to find an animal they shot and it got on your place, you're supposed to let them find it and leave. Other than that, they're trespassing."

As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much sums it up for me.

Jim wrote:I had a rare chance to speak with a Va. game warden yesterday. I happened to stop at the local quik stop and he was filling his dept. truck with gas.
I asked him if he had a minute for a question and he was very congenial. "Sure! How can I help you?" I told him about this thread. He said "If your property is posted with signs and someone other than the land owner or legal tenant is on it, they must have written permission to be there. Otherwise, they're AUTOMATICALLY trespassing. "What does the sign have to say?" He said any sign that shows they're not welcome without permission. Posted, no trespassing, no hunting, whatever. "So, if someone is one my property without permission, I don't have to tell them to leave?" "No, and I don't have to tell them either. If they don't have a letter of permission in their pocket, they're going with me. Now, if they're trying to find an animal they shot and it got on your place, you're supposed to let them find it and leave. Other than that, they're trespassing."

As far as I'm concerned, that pretty much sums it up for me.

That's pretty close. I wouldn't hire that guy to defend me in court, though. Or rely on what he said as a landowner. But as to the prospectively traipsing hunter, that's good advice.

As Jim quoted from the State code, signs work. Just post some No Trespassing signs and be done with it. If anyone enters your land uninvited, and are not tracking an animal that they shot, they can be charged with trespassing plain and simple.

Yarddawg wrote:As Jim quoted from the State code, signs work. Just post some No Trespassing signs and be done with it. If anyone enters your land uninvited, and are not tracking an animal that they shot, they can be charged with trespassing plain and simple.

Exactly. Pure, plain and simple. No muss, no fuss, no confrontation with potential for problems. Just call Johnny and let him handle it.

user wrote:1) The crime of brandishing a firearm is not limited to public places - you can be found guilty of that offense if you're doing it in your own bedroom. The essense of the offense is coercion or intimidation (e.g., "Get off my land!")

That's not entirely correct. The person doing the brandishing has to instill ACTUAL APPRENSION in the threatened person. Much to my amazement, I lost a case this past August because the victim stated that the woman pointing the loaded pistol to her face "angered" her, but that she didn't feel threatened or scared. So the rule is not whether the brandisher intended to intimidate the victim, it's whether the victim actually felt intimidated.

As to trespassing, I've prosecuted more of these than I'd care to remember and it is correct that properly posted signs are sufficient for putting someone on notice. However, the rules get a little wonkey when it comes to visibility and location. The short story is to make sure they're clear and legible, placed where they're likely to be seen, and that they're are enough of them to cover the various access points (i.e. No putting them two acres apart from one another).

By the by, a person is not required to have written permission to be on your land, though there are certain circumstances where it would help him.

All this talk of confrontation.

Video cameras are dirt cheap and have amazing zoom lenses these days. Digital cameras automatically record the date/time the recording was made.

Videotape the tresspasser and once you have a good face shot and call the cops.

kulprit wrote:.....By the by, a person is not required to have written permission to be on your land, though there are certain circumstances where it would help him.

The following is copied and pasted, verbatim, from Virginia Hunting Regulations.
Hunting on Private Property

Trespass violations, posting property, and access issues are all concerns affecting landowner's considerations for allowing hunting. Hunters are reminded that it is unlawful to hunt on private property without the permission of the landowner, and hunters must have the permission of the landowner to track or retrieve wounded game on private property.
On Posted Property:

It is unlawful to hunt without written permission of the landowner and is punishable by a fine of up to $2500 and/or 12 months in jail.