Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

jrswanson1 wrote:

zephyp wrote:

jrswanson1 wrote:If you want something to cook with over an open fire, a cast iron skillet and a wok will keep you covered.

And remember, if you use oddball rounds, no one is going to steal them from you. Who are you going to try to steal from, me with my stockpile of 10mm ammo, or that guy with the stockpile of 9mm ammo?

Jim

I dont think thugs are going to send out polls to see who has what so they know who to hit...if you gots anything that looks valuable then you are a target.

People talk. Neighbors know what you have. Face it. If you aren't talking about it, your wife, kids, friends know and blab. It's just how things are.

This is true (assuming you don't teach them better), but I doubt it is of sufficient detail to ward off an attack because of how rare it is (which is an odd assumption, see below). They know you have a stash, but knowing that you keep 10mm and not 9mm is in the noise. Even if they did know, they probably wouldn't care.

Plus, keeping it stashed and someone finds it? If they can't use it, they'll dump it. No one wants to hump around 2000 rounds of ammo they can't use.

Wrong. It is valuable even if their gun doesn't shoot it because they can trade it (anyone who made the effort to stash ammo probably stashed a few guns too...which logic would suggest were of the caliber of ammo hidden). People don't just steal stuff because they need it, they steal any thing of value because they can get what they actually want for it.

Also, the average person who thinks it is a good idea to attempt stealing ammo probably wasn't prepared and has their back against the wall. If they weren't prepared in the first place, odds are they don't even know the difference between 9mm and 10mm other than the latest rap song praised 9mm not this 10mm stuff.

The fatal flaw is assuming the enemy is like you.

@jrswanson1 - if the SHTF things wont happen the way you might imagine. There will be a complete breakdown. We can only guess how things might go.

My guess on this issue is that there will be thugs, most likely in gangs, who will try to take anything they want just because it looks flashy and worth more than dirt.

Regarding ammo, IMHO the very best situation is to have guns with common ammo...that way it will be easier to find. I'd like to think the thugs are shooting the same calibers I am so I can take their stuff first...

zephyp wrote:@jrswanson1 - if the SHTF things wont happen the way you might imagine. There will be a complete breakdown. We can only guess how things might go.

My guess on this issue is that there will be thugs, most likely in gangs, who will try to take anything they want just because it looks flashy and worth more than dirt.

Regarding ammo, IMHO the very best situation is to have guns with common ammo...that way it will be easier to find. I'd like to think the thugs are shooting the same calibers I am so I can take their stuff first...

Reminds me of something I heard from a military friend once...paraphrasing:

"When the two way range goes hot, there is always plenty of spare weapons to pick up or barrow because only a handful of people are actually fighting, most are just trying to not get shot."

Finished the book just last night. Wasn't a fan of the style from the beginning, but my intrigue with the topic got me through the book. Among many other things, the author needs to learn the difference between a clip and a magazine.

zephyp wrote:Regarding ammo, IMHO the very best situation is to have guns with common ammo...that way it will be easier to find. I'd like to think the thugs are shooting the same calibers I am so I can take their stuff first...

Do you smoke? Know anyone who does? When you pop open a fresh pack, anyone who does smoke and is out is the first one who tries to bum from you. If you smoke Lucky Strikes, not a whole lot of people want to bum one from you, versus Marlboro Lights. Same with calculators during finals in engineering school. I had an HP scientific calculator. There were always those people who asked to borrow it, then ask where the equal sign was I have a lot of ammo stashed away. I think maybe two people on this board shoot these cartridges. Yes, I have .308, .223, and 9mms. I'll pick those up if I'm desperate. But 1000 rounds of 10mm and 800 rounds of 6.8 SPC won't be shared since no one else uses it. And I'm saving more everyday.

Jim

Ah yes, but you werent talking about bums or sharing. You were talking about thugs ripping you off. Thats ok. And as an aspiring ex-smoker I know very well that when you want a smoke and dont have one - any brand will do... -- and bum a light too...dont matter if it comes from a lighter or a match or the end of yours...

zephyp wrote:Ah yes, but you werent talking about bums or sharing. You were talking about thugs ripping you off.

Yes, but this goes both ways too. While others may not share your ammo, you can't share in theirs. If you run out, you're SOL.

On a sliding scale, as things get worse, the less likely it is that civilian ammo plants will be running anything other than the military calibers. Also, as things get worse, it becomes more likely that the military would need to rely on small arms instead of massively complex weapon systems. Lastly, as things get worse, the more likely it is you will be able to find abandoned weapons and ammo. This is why the common military calibers are so popular IMHO. It isn't because they are the best.

To each his own, but I agree with DK. Common calibers helps you more than it can hurt you IMO. You decide if you want or need to share. E.g. I know of several members around me and if they needed ammo or weapons (during a SHTF situtation) I'd provide some and I would expect the opposite if I was in need. Of course that would be in exchange for joining the group and watching each others backs. That has always been a key point in any long term SHTF scenario, you must find others whom you trust and work together.

I don't care if you are an ex-navy SEAL, your odds of survival go way down if you are on your own. One man against a roving gang of 100 usually isn't going to go well.

"And be ready for the looters that come to take it all "

"People talk. Neighbors know what you have. Face it. If you aren't talking about it, your wife, kids, friends know and blab. It's just how things are. "

Sorry, forgot to add to my list - keep you mouth shut, dont brag about your food stash or ammo stash. Oh, and I am the wife who DOES NOT talk. I am for the true meaning of word PRIVACY and "no need to know" standard.

Just wanted to comment on a quote someone said about GPS and maps being useless......

GPS maybe, but if you are traveling on foot, a contured map and compass are invaluable if you know how to use them.

skeeterss0 wrote:Just wanted to comment on a quote someone said about GPS and maps being useless......

GPS maybe, but if you are traveling on foot, a contured map and compass are invaluable if you know how to use them.

It depends on how bad things get. Huricane Katrina was SHTF as far as I'm concerned, but GPS obviously still worked.

Musta missed the post where maps were declared useless. The premise was an EMP and fried electronics.

WRW wrote:Musta missed the post where maps were declared useless. The premise was an EMP and fried electronics.

GPS capability is still provided by MILSAT...shields Mr. Sulu!!!

WRW wrote:Musta missed the post where maps were declared useless. The premise was an EMP and fried electronics.

Not having read the book, the premise is a US wide EMP that kills all electronics and the GPS birds 20,000 km up? To put that in perspective that is 1.5x the earths diameter.

It's not the satellites but that little handheld dickens that I was thinking about.

WRW wrote:It's not the satellites but that little handheld dickens that I was thinking about.

Ok. I'm curious how a 3000x1500 mile (give or take) EMP was generated. Multiple? Air burst nuke causing havok with the ionosphere?

xflip14 wrote:Ok the situation is (like in the book) an EMP goes off, fries everything electrical, cell phones, cars, lights we have nothing...now what. do you have the provisions to get past the immediate crazyness, what about the knowledge to get by in the long run?

I dunno. Haven't read the book, but this was the premise.

WRW wrote:

xflip14 wrote:Ok the situation is (like in the book) an EMP goes off, fries everything electrical, cell phones, cars, lights we have nothing...now what. do you have the provisions to get past the immediate crazyness, what about the knowledge to get by in the long run?

I dunno. Haven't read the book, but this was the premise.

No problem. I'm just trying to understand how such an EMP could be generated and it would matter much more than 15 mins. The only way I know of to generate an EMP that large is a nuclear dentonation at altitude. The Starfish Prime test was a 1.44MT bomb. While tests create massive bombs, actual deployed warheads are much smaller, usually between 100-500KT. About 1/3 what the EMP test at best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield

Don't get me wrong, 500KT is still crazy powerful and with modern knowledge you could get a similar EMP with a lot less yield than 1.44MT. However, that is a US weapon. Anything from NK or Iran or anyone beside a first world country is likely to be much smaller.

What I'm having trouble comprehending is the situation where a nuke is air burst above US soil and we sit around doing nothing. Seems to me that war would go hot very quickly (heck it did with the EMP burst) and it wouldn't matter much anymore.

I haven't been reading up on the matter. Russia had Tsar Bomba (100 MT scaled back to 50 MT for testing purposes). I wonder what China has.

WRW wrote:I haven't been reading up on the matter. Russia had Tsar Bomba (100 MT scaled back to 50 MT for testing purposes). I wonder what China has.

Yes, but practically undeliverable. In the early years everyone was in a race to build a bigger bomb. It was status and research. Once ICBM targeting improved, everyone scaled back to a couple hundred kilo-tons and focused on multiple indendantly targeted reentry vehicles. I.e. once you could hit your target within a few hundred meters, you didn't need MT bombs to guarantee you destroyed it. It became more important to hit multiple targets on a smaller scale.

Also, the larger bombs wasted lots of material which took a lot of resources to make.

The Russians both have similar yields as we do. The Chinese still use single digit MT yields due to their inability to hit a target with a CEP of 1km or more. However, they don't have many that can hit the USA though.

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/chnukes.html#tac

These are the only missiles in China's arsenal capable of hitting the continental United States.

Year Deployed: 1981
Weight: 190,000 kilograms
Propulsion: Two stage liquid
Throw-weight: 3,200 kilograms
Range: 11,000 kilometers
Guidance: Inertial
Circular Error Probable: Unknown
Warhead: Single warhead
Yield: 5 megatons
Number Deployed: 7 missiles

However, further modernization of the land-based missile program is definitely underway. The latest series of tests at China's Lop Nor site before the signature of the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty were probably conducted to prove miniaturized, multiple warhead designs. By examining the estimated yields of these tests, it is likely that China is working on two new warheads, one with a yield of 100-200 kilotons, and another with a yield of 600-700 kilotons.

Future land-based missiles include the Dong Feng-31, a single warhead (100-200 kiloton) missile with an 8,000 kilometer range. This missile will likely be silo-based and solid fueled. Deployment is expected in the late 1990's. The other major strategic system is the DF-41, with a true ICBM with range of 12,000 kilometers, and an undetermined number of MIRVs. The DF-41 will replace the DF-5 ICBM and could be deployed around 2010.

Of course this data is old, but it is hard to get modern unclassified data. Generally, it is expected that the Chinese have now scaled down their warheads to be comparable to the Russian and US yields.

Here is a must easy to read summary:

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/database/nukestab.html

Here is a drawing showing the differences between MT and hundred KT detonations. Clearly if you can't hit the target withing a KM, you need MT. Once you can, why bother?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Compa ... _sizes.svg