Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

wylde007 wrote:The pledge is a propaganda tool to make obedient serfs out of the people.

The flag is a symbol of the government used to promote its own self-righteousness and get a little "rah-rah-rah" going from the tax slaves to make them feel like they belong to something important.

Indivisible is utter crap. That is 100% violation of Constitutional and true republican principle. Any country, state or person who does not enjoy the right to peacefully and amicably leave a VOLUNTARY UNION is not free.

That Red Skelton belt of hogwash irritates me to no end.

Here are some students reciting the pledge in 1935. Look familiar?



The original pledge was written by one Francis Bellamy, a socialist, to express the ideals of his cousin's utopian socialist writings in Looking Backward and Equality. The image you see above was originally known as the "Bellamy Salute".

I fell for it when I was a child because I did not know any better. What's your excuse?

Wylde007, you raise some good points here. Not many people know the history of the public education system. It was based on the Prussian system and education, as our founding fathers knew it, wasn't the point and still isn't. The point is to create people who are use to following orders and don't question anything. No wonder we can't make it "work" despite all the money we throw at it. Ultimately, it will and has created a people who are slaves. Put the right process in and you can predict the results...the Prussians were social engineering and it wasn't for the peoples good. There is a great book which is a collection of essay's by Alfred Jay Nock. They are part of the Page-Barbour lecture series at UVA. Absolutely d*mning of the public education system.

Obviously, wylde007, you are a bit more read than the average American. Use it to guide those who aren't rather than beating them over the head with it and I think you will find better results. Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free...problem is it doesn't mention the shear frustration you will bear because not everyone else is there yet.

This country was created on a common set of principles. We all but ignore them now; we just redefine them to mean anything the "masters" want. America is not a geographic location, nor a government or flag or pledge, nor simply a group of people. America was an ideal. I say was because America has become all of those other things first. Doesn't matter which side of the political spectrum you claim to be from.

Want to make America great again? Return it to those ideals. Problem is it requires the left to give up the welfare state and the right to give up the warfare state. While they daemonize each other, America loses. Neither is willing to admit any wrongdoing in getting us here today. Until they both admit that big government, regardless if it is the warfare or welfare state, is not the answer, hang on because there is no pulling plane out of a nose dive. Until American's realize it isn't their neighbor that is the problem, but them and all the things they want the government to do for them, we'll just blame each other as we spiral into the abyss.

novasig, here is a good story why I think you might be optimistic. Just found this.

Unlucky Ducks

I once worked as a software contractor for a state agency (forgive me). The building where I worked was not your typical government building. It had a modern feel, with a decorative moat detailing the front entrance. The front door — guarded, of course — was accessible via a walkway bridge of sorts.

It's not what you may be thinking; it was all very subtle and nice. However, the drop from the bridge to the mulch-covered, bush-laden moat was a good three feet.

One year, at the beginning of spring, a duck built a nest in the moat, under one of the many bushes. As her ducklings hatched and grew, it came time for them to search for water. However, despite their repeated attempts, the ducklings could not jump from the moat to the walkway bridge.

One of the employees in the building asked the building manager if he (the employee) could place a wooden ramp to allow the ducklings to waddle out of the moat. Being a good state employee himself, the building manager called the state department of natural resources for guidance. The answer: since ducks are migratory birds, no one could do anything.

The next morning, someone plastered official signs around the entrance, stating that any attempt to help the ducks was a violation of law. No ramp, no water, no food. And violators — you know this already — would be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

Soon we had a real scene. The mother duck would leave the moat and encourage her ducklings to follow. They couldn't, of course. She would march back and forth on the walkway bridge and quack in desperation. All the while, the guard at the entrance stood watch, stopping any attempt to help.

Repeated calls to the bureaucrats at the department of natural resources were answered by a repetition of laws and fines. And not one of the department employees was going to go against the rules, or even ask for an exemption, for any reason.

The ducklings died days later.

There you have it: upon joining the state, the department of resource folks — folks who likely dreamed of careers helping wildlife — became staunch bureaucrats enforcing rules over reason.

http://mises.org/daily/4343

gunderwood wrote:Obviously, wylde007, you are a bit more read than the average American. Use it to guide those who aren't rather than beating them over the head with it and I think you will find better results. Ye shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free...problem is it doesn't mention the shear frustration you will bear because not everyone else is there yet.

An excellent point. It is a common - all too common, truly - failing of the liberal-minded to browbeat and harangue. Should they convince the listener to agree to their position, they proceed to find another point on which to harass them. It is a habit I sometimes evince, though I am trying to wean myself of it.

Simply put, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I know you're impatient, but it was a long road to get where we are now, getting out will take at least as long if we can leave at all.

I came from a country who was ruled by a dictator for 14 years. This dictator served 4 years after being voted into the presidencey (for a 4-year term). Wanting to perpetuate himself in power, he declared Martial Law and silenced his opponents, moved to changed the constitution, and submitted to a Snap Election to show that he can cling to power through "legitimate" means. I was never able to exercise my right of Suffrage although I participated in an election but my vote was never counted (because as it turned out, the polling place where I voted for my candidate had ZERO returns). Even after the end of this dictator's regime, my former country underwent countless Coup d' Etat attempts from power grabbers thus contributing to the country's political and economic instability.

Now for one who has experienced the rule of Martial Law and all the abuses that came with it, I must say that this country's transfer of power (every four years) is the most peacful, most appreciated and most admired as far as this individual is concerned. To my American friends this I say: you probably don't never know how lucky and how blessed you are that you are enjoying your liberty and all its benefits and the ability to preserve it. We all have the power to change the leadership of this great country by the power of the ballot, not by the power of guns. Let's use the ballot to throw the bums out, Republicans or Democrats should they no longer represent our will. Paritcipation in the political process by exercising one's right to vote is a form of Patriotism. I am grateful where I am now and grateful for all the benefits my family and I enjoy in this great country. I am also proud to say that we have not been a burden to this country, including my father who served under the USAFFE and fought with the Americans in Bataan in WWII. Thank you!

@ Jericho01
We all have the power to change the leadership of this great country by the power of the ballot, not by the power of guns. Let's use the ballot to throw the bums out, Republicans or Democrats should they no longer represent our will.

Amen to that. I don't care whether they are Republican or Democrat if they are not doing thier job then they need to be voted the hell out and we need to put someone in that will do thier job and get this mess cleaned up.

We need True Statesmen in those seats and I think that those that serve in the House, Senate, and as President should not get paid by the taxpayer. Most of them are wealthy and can live off thier own means outside our Taxpayers money. Maybe that would make them think about why they were there in the first place. It might also cut back on the career politician as well.

Paritcipation in the political process by exercising one's right to vote is a form of Patriotism.

Very True, Very True

Vern

gunderwood wrote:WOW! What a thread!

I like these threads (when they remain civil) because they allow you to think outside of the box or from a different perspective.

As do I. A healthy debate was a founding principle of the university system. As I understand it, philosophers and rhetoricians would stand out on the university quad (or whatever it was known as back in ancient time) and offer a point of thought and engage in a debate with whomever showed up to talk or listen. It's too bad that our education system doesn't do this anymore. Too often, students are spoon fed information and simply regurgitate it onto some exam. If the system actively engaged students in debate and reasoning I think we'd be much better off as a whole. There was nothing wrong with the Socratic method.

gunderwood wrote:novasig226r: I think I might like you.

I generally like everyone. I usually have less time for people who are fanatics for any cause since fanaticism typically narrows one's mind far too much to be healthy. I believe it's perfectly fine to have a difference in opinion insofar as all parties involved remain civil. Once civility is done away with, we've all lost. "Can't we all just get along?"

gunderwood wrote:

novasig226r wrote:I agree, except that I would argue that those who serve the government, in practice, are striving, in principle, to serve the people.

I agree too, but I think novasig226r that you might be a little optimistic here.

Reading what I originally wrote, I certainly agree that it is an optimistic view. Unfortunately, I left out "many of". What I meant to write was:

... I would argue that many of those who serve the government ...

No matter. In either form it serves as a talking point, which was the whole idea.

Good times, and awesome discussion.

gunderwood wrote:novasig, here is a good story why I think you might be optimistic. Just found this.

Unlucky Ducks

http://mises.org/daily/4343

That's a great read.

I think it also serves as a reminder that strong, central governments are not all that they are cracked up to be. All that power and oversight handicapped the local "population" from doing a good deed.

While one might argue, "they're just ducks!" I could counter and say, "next time it's us."