Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I think a simpler explanation is that the low-lifes at CAIR are simply issuing press releases in order to incite their own constituency. And, of course, the MSM is uncritically lapping it up.

The arrests have dealt "a severe blow to a dangerous organization that today stands accused of conspiring to levy war against the United States," Attorney General Eric Holder said.

FBI agents moved quickly against the group because its members were planning an attack sometime in April, prosecutors said. Authorities seized guns in the raids but would not say whether they found any explosives(I betcha they didn't, but by the time of the trial, they might)

Prosecutors said Stone had identified certain law enforcement officers near his home as [potential targets]. He and other members discussed setting off bombs at a police funeral, using a fake 911 call to lure an officer to his death, killing an officer after a traffic stop, or attacking the family of an officer, according to the indictment.

After such attacks, the group allegedly planned to retreat to "rally points" protected by trip-wired explosives for a violent standoff with the law.


The charges against the eight include seditious conspiracy - plotting to levy war against the U.S. -

possessing a firearm during a crime of violence,(I can't wait to hear what this crime is)


teaching the use of explosives, and attempting to use a weapon of mass destruction - homemade bombs. The defendants were jailed, awaiting bail hearings Wednesday.




The nature of the organization's alleged grudge against law enforcement and the government was unclear. The Web site does not list any specific grievances.
(I didn't read any anti government rants on this site, however I did not read every article either))



The site features a picture of 17 men in camouflage, all holding large guns, and includes videos of armed men running through the woods. Each wears a shoulder patch that bears a cross and two red spears.

David Cid, executive director of the Oklahoma City-based Memorial Institute for the Prevention of Terrorism, said there has been a resurgence in the past year or two of "domestic militancy" similar to what was seen before the Oklahoma City bombing.(welcome back timmy)



The wife of one of the defendants described Hutaree as a small group of patriotic, Christian buddies who were just doing survival training.

"It consisted of a dad and two of his sons and I think just a couple other close friends of theirs," said Kelly Sickles, who husband, Kristopher, was among those charged. "It was supposed to be a Christian group. Christ-like, right, so why would you think that's something wrong with that, right?"

Sickles said she came home Saturday night to find her house in Sandusky, Ohio, in disarray. Agents seized the guns her husband collected as a hobby and searched for bomb-making materials, she said, but added: "He doesn't even know how to make a bomb. We had no bomb material here."

She said she couldn't believe her 27-year-old husband could be involved in anything violent.

"It was just survival skills," she said. "That's what they were learning. And it's just patriotism. It's in our Constitution."

(This woman is about to learn a hard lesson about the diferences in the way we the people view the constitution, and they way they the rulers do.)

One of the defendants expressed anti-tax views during his Monday court hearing.

Thomas W. Piatek, a truck driver from Whiting, Ind., told a federal judge he could not afford an attorney because he was "getting raped on property taxes."( and for his anti-tax(tea party)views he should be imprisoned)

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100329/D9EOISE80.html

I find it interesting that when a Muslim murders numerous soldiers on American soil while screaming "Allah, Allah, Allah", the President immediately comes out and tells everyone not to jump to conclusions. But this group hasn't fired a single shot and everyone one is ready to demonize them as "Christian militia".

TheGodfather wrote:I find it interesting that when a Muslim murders numerous soldiers on American soil while screaming "Allah, Allah, Allah", the President immediately comes out and tells everyone not to jump to conclusions. But this group hasn't fired a single shot and everyone one is ready to demonize them as "Christian militia".

Thats because there are more guns in the hands of christians in this country, than there are in the hands of muslims.Christianinty is filled with rightwing extremists, Islam is a peaceful religion. Face it, once "they" are successful in brainwashing the majority of idiots in america into thinking christians are dangerous , they will be able to disarm america with a mandate from the dumbass masses.



....on a side note, some former FBI jackoff is on FOX right now talking about the incident yesterday, he just said, that "these religious, and militia groups are all anti-government groups" he is using words like Powderkeg, fanatics,religious zealots, and he is painting all militia groups with these words.....he even goes as far as saying that these arrests are not going to be the end all, they will produce more intel on "OTHER" groups because these types of people tend to train with other militias.....who may or may not be as religious........in other words....Its on. Like I said in an earlier posting, "who exactly sets the parameters for which group of people constitute an unorganized militia?....anyone know the answer to that?

GS78 wrote:

TheGodfather wrote:I find it interesting that when a Muslim murders numerous soldiers on American soil while screaming "Allah, Allah, Allah", the President immediately comes out and tells everyone not to jump to conclusions. But this group hasn't fired a single shot and everyone one is ready to demonize them as "Christian militia".

Thats because there are more guns in the hands of christians in this country, than there are in the hands of muslims.Christianinty is filled with rightwing extremists, Islam is a peaceful religion.

Thanks for the laugh. Unfortunately, I was laughing because it is true and when put so simply and straight forward, you can't help but laugh at the absurdity.

GS78 wrote:Face it, once "they" are successful in brainwashing the majority of idiots in america into thinking christians are dangerous , they will be able to disarm america with a mandate from the dumbass masses.

Exactly. The scary thing is that if they are actually going to try that they must think they already have it wrapped up and it is a done deal.

GS78 wrote:....on a side note, some former FBI jackoff is on FOX right now talking about the incident yesterday, he just said, that "these religious, and militia groups are all anti-government groups" he is using words like Powderkeg, fanatics,religious zealots, and he is painting all militia groups with these words.....he even goes as far as saying that these arrests are not going to be the end all, they will produce more intel on "OTHER" groups because these types of people tend to train with other militias.....who may or may not be as religious........in other words....Its on. Like I said in an earlier posting, "who exactly sets the parameters for which group of people constitute an unorganized militia?....anyone know the answer to that?

That was the point of my previous post. There is always a difference between reality and the official story. How many Americans would have stood for Waco if they had know the Feds started it over a rumor the Davidians avoided paying a $200 tax stamp? How about Ruby ridge, where the supposed crime was a stock just a fraction of an inch too short. Everytime it is the same story, religious nutjobs and guns. They can't tell the public the truth that they are bringing in FBI snipers because some guy may have sold a gun with a stock under some arbitrary limit.

By GREG BLUESTEIN

BLYTHE, Ga. (AP) - If police officers find grainy white powder at a makeshift lab and assume they've made a drug bust, they could be making an explosive mistake.

The FBI has been training thousands of law enforcement officials across the nation to identify, disrupt and dismantle improvised explosive devices, including bombs made out of ordinary household products.


Notice anything missing in this paragraph?..

The need was underlined this week when federal authorities said they disrupted a suspected plot by a Christian militia to kill police officers with homemade bombs. That follows last year's alleged plot to make bombs out of beauty supplies and an airline passenger's alleged attempt on Christmas Day to detonate a bomb hidden in his underwear.



How about this one?


In one recent class, bomb technicians created a wall of fire by igniting a rope filled with the same kind of explosives found in the airline bombing attempt. They blew to bits a latex glove filled with hot dogs - an attempt to approximate the blast's effect on a human hand

(another missed opportunity here)
In a recent example, authorities say an Denver-area airport shuttle driver, Najibullah Zazi,( citizen of Afghanistan ) plotted to bomb the New York subway system with explosives made from beauty supplies. Zazi pleaded guilty in February to conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction and other charges

(oops there it is)
And nine suspects tied to a Midwest Christian militia were charged on Monday with conspiring to kill police officers and then plotting to attack a funeral using homemade bombs in hopes of killing more law enforcement officials.

(missed it again in the next line)
The FBI training focuses on such devices, as well as manufactured chemicals such as PETN, which is used in Hollywood-type explosions and was found in the failed Detroit-bound airliner attack in December


(he had training from ....still they havent identified his religion yet)

Authorities allege that Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab assembled an explosive device, including 80 grams of PETN, in the aircraft's bathroom and planned to detonate it with a syringe of chemicals. Passengers and crew thwarted the attack. Authorities say the Nigerian student has told investigators he received training and instructions from al-Qaida operatives in Yemen.


"And preventing terrorism attacks is something we can't do alone. The law enforcement community as a whole has to be prepared."

so there you have it. The ONLY religion even named in this article about terrorism, is christianity. Although we KNOW that the ONLY true examples of bombs or bomb making materials are in the cases of the MUSLIM offenders, we are never told that specifically. Christians are named in the same article here as terrorists, even though the exact correlation is not fixed.(except to say that bombs can be made from ordinary household chemiclas, how convenient, who doesn't have household chemicals in their house?




http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100330/D9EOTUN00.html

I find it interesting and very strange that the powers that be turn a blind eye on the Muslim extremes such as the situation near Red House, Virginia. There is a "compound" near there where the Muslims have a LARGE group of trailers, double-wides and buildings where a whole community of them live. They refuse to allow their female children to go to school, and no one is objecting. They have training facilities both above and below ground, and no one seems to think that maybe, just maybe they are up to no good. They are followers of one of the most radical Muslims clerics that ever was, and the powers that be ignore them. Why? Can you imagine what would happen if several hundred Christians built and occupied such a fenced compound and refused to allow anyone in but their members? Our anti-American pro-Muslim African president and his regime would be sending the military, FBI, CIA, and anyone else that they could think of in to wipe them out.

Let me throw a real curve into this discussion. Has anyone considered that the "Meet and Greet" at SgtBill's place might be considered a meeting of "militia" by some whacko federal agent? After all, it will be a group of mostly white male Christians practicing with all sorts of firearms. The FBI said that they had a mole inside that group they raided....wonder how many FBI agents we have as members here? Just something to think about......

WildBill44 wrote:I find it interesting and very strange that the powers that be turn a blind eye on the Muslim extremes such as the situation near Red House, Virginia. There is a "compound" near there where the Muslims have a LARGE group of trailers, double-wides and buildings where a whole community of them live. They refuse to allow their female children to go to school, and no one is objecting. They have training facilities both above and below ground, and no one seems to think that maybe, just maybe they are up to no good. They are followers of one of the most radical Muslims clerics that ever was, and the powers that be ignore them. Why? Can you imagine what would happen if several hundred Christians built and occupied such a fenced compound and refused to allow anyone in but their members? Our anti-American pro-Muslim African president and his regime would be sending the military, FBI, CIA, and anyone else that they could think of in to wipe them out.

Let me throw a real curve into this discussion. Has anyone considered that the "Meet and Greet" at SgtBill's place might be considered a meeting of "militia" by some whacko federal agent? After all, it will be a group of mostly white male Christians practicing with all sorts of firearms. The FBI said that they had a mole inside that group they raided....wonder how many FBI agents we have as members here? Just something to think about......

The difference is that the Christians proabably won't give the government an excuse to gain more power, while the Muslims you mention, given time, are more likely too. Since the Christians won't start it, the governments got to go help them out a bit.

GS78 wrote:


The site features a picture of 17 men in camouflage, all holding large guns, and includes videos of armed men running through the woods. l

OMG that describes alomst every hunting club around here except they only move as far away from their truck as their CB mic.cord allows. It does describe a saturday afternoon of target practice here in the county.

WildBill44 wrote: Can you imagine what would happen if several hundred Christians built and occupied such a fenced compound and refused to allow anyone in but their members?

That happened last year in Utah I believe, The feds surrounded the place and then took all the children and made them wards of the state....maybe someone near red barn can make an anonymous phone call saying those muslim girls are being abused.....then the feds would have to go in .......



I doubt the fbi had a mole, regardless of what they say publicly. That group was a tight knit group , so tight even the neighbors didn't realize what they were up to. The fbi took its orders from a pro radical muslim group, and the Southern Law and Poverty center{similar to the ACLU,} , another apologist organization for the enemies of this country.

WildBill did you know they patrol the perimeter in Red House carrying AK's ? And a couple of them were arrested after 911 for supplying firearms to terriosts. Plus the main road in was named after the terriost that ordered Daniel Pearle beheaded.

Vahunter wrote:WildBill did you know they patrol the perimeter in Red House carrying AK's ? And a couple of them were arrested after 911 for supplying firearms to terriosts. Plus the main road in was named after the terriost that ordered Daniel Pearle beheaded.

why are they allowed to patrol with ak's if some were arrested for aiding terrorists? seems like that should be a gun free zone?


unless they have diplomatic immunity.....

GS78 wrote:Ok I know some of these "militias" might be a little whacked out, BUT! we have to ask why the ATF, FBI under Holder ( who already has blood on his hands from Waco) is raiding these so-called militias? one thing we are told over and over in these stories is that these were "christian militias"...... This may be the start of something a whole lot bigger.

http://www.thenews-messenger.com/articl ... /100329001

http://detnews.com/article/20100328/MET ... tia-group=

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp& ... 68f2eec009

Phyllis Brugger, who has lived in the area for more than 30 years, said some people who lived there were known as having ties to militia. They would shoot guns and often wore camouflage, according to Brugger and her daughter, Heidi Wood.

"Everybody knew they were militia," Brugger said. "You don't mess with them."

This is what disturbs me, statements like this lady made. I am reading several news accounts of these raids and yet to find any criminal activity , that would have been public knowledge anyway, to cause the raids by the feds.....

GS78 What part of DOMESTIC TERRORIST DO you not understand? They were arrested because they were legally indicted by their peers, a Grand Jury, for sedition among other things. Please don't tell us that you don't know that conspiring to kill law enforcement officials is a crime, making and constructing explosive devices and teaching others to do the same for the purpose of committing a crime is also a crimal offense. Carrying out the crime is not necessary to be found guilty. Remember the blind sheik, the one conspiring to bomb the tunnels in New York? He is serving a life sentence in a super max facility under the same statute if I'm not mistaken.

If you happen to be a member of one of these militias I would suggest that you run not walk to the nearest Federal and State Criminal statutes and READ THEM, as you well know ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have repeatedly warmed friends and acquaintances alike who are thinking of joining a militia, a so-called patriot group, or a "play" para-military group, or other civilian military group, they can be and are a lot of fun. Military or law enforcement type training in and of itself is not harmful, in fact it's fun, a fun way to better physical fitness, exciting, competitive, you learn useful skills and can lead to lasting friendships among other things. BUT know what and who you are joining, do due diligence. What is the purpose of the organization, who are they aligned with, who are the leaders, what's their background, etc. read everything on their web site and go to every link on their website to see what they are all about. If it was not obvious to you before, Home Land Security, The FBI and law enforcement in general are actively monitoring militias.

The Arlington Ft Hunt gathering in Apr is an example of what I mean: Commonsense should tell you it WILL be monitored and infiltrated by domestic intelligence and law enforcement officials. If for no other reason than the fact that large numbers of armed people will be in the park. It does not matter that they will be legally armed. Then there's the rumor that one of the featured speakers will be an individual who recently has been going as close as one can get to encouraging armed revolt. So, if you attend, smile likely as not you will be on candid camera depending on what you are wearing, what your sign, if you have one says, and what you yourself say. You just might find your mug, unknown to you, in someone's face recognition data base. or you might wonder why either you or someone you know suddenly become a pretty regular selectee when you fly. Far fetched and paranoid you say?

We know law enforcement infiltrated groups like code pink and spent hours attending meetings where all that violent stuff like what kind of cup cakes to bake and what to put on a protest sign was discussed. Why would you think they would ignore armed groups? Do you remember what Secretary Rice said on 9/12 when asked about 9/11? She said: "No one imagined anyone would use an airplane as a weapon" Now fast forward to 2010 is some idiot at some point after the FT Hunt gathering committed some dastardly deed to do something about what he heard from feature speakers, would you want to stand up with cameras rolling and say: "No one imagined that anyone would in the FT Hunt crowd would take literally and act on what they thought someone said.


The Hutaree published on You Tube video of their training sessions out in the woods. They were armed, most with AR type semi-auto rifles, and going through obvious tactical exercises. Now, no one cares about people running around in the woods while legally armed playing soldier. However, if it can be proven that what you are actually doing is training and preparing to commit a crime that's another story.


The press called them a Christian Militias because that's what they called themselves. If you went to their web site which had not been shut down as of early yesterday, you would know that they fancied themselves as Christian Warriors.

Instead of being upset about their arrest you should be horrified that they intended to kill law enforcement officials and their families. They would then wait for the funerals to engage in mass killing of those who attended. If that isn't enough they planned on using the same tactic as Jihadists use, IEDs! Unlike some other alleged terrorists they will have their day in court. I for one await the judgment of their peers.

But wait! Under the powers assumed by our unitary President George Bush and upheld by the Office of Legal Counsel in the Department of Justice our current President should declare them enemy combatants and throw them into a military jail, where again according to the former President the writ of habeas corpus is not applicable. Later we could try them in a military court, or what the hell let's just keep them confined for as long as the President deems it necessary.

While I think the former civilian approach is more in keeping with American principles and ideals, in deference to folks like you G78 I would go along with treating them the same way we treated alleged Islamic terrorists. If there is one thing I can count on, it's that you all do not differentiate between American citizens who are arrested for terrorism and anyone else, it does not matter if they profess to be Christian or Muslim. A terrorist is a terrorist, right?

Since the FBI, the BATF acted because the plan was going operational in a few days, this is one of those ticking time bomb situations. We know for example they were in contact with other militia groups located in several other States. Interrogation for information is now critical. We need to know from these nine who else was involved. If they won't tell us, enhanced interrogation techniques should be approved. I'm sure we can get it out of them without water boarding any one of them 84 times.

Gat6
When you think you are giving away someone else's rights you are OK with it until you find out the hard way that you gave away yours too!

GS78 wrote:OK its now apparent to me(I know I always jump without a net)

There is something really fishy about this story.......

http://freep.com/article/20100329/NEWS0 ... fore-judge

Six Michigan residents, two Ohio residents and an Indiana resident have been indicted for attempted use of weapons of mass destruction in connection with their membership in a Lenawee County Christian militia group, according to investigators,all members of the Hutaree -- conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government, according to a release by the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Detroit. The indictment claims that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with improvised explosive devices rigged with projectiles, which constitute weapons of mass destruction, according to the announcement by U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade.
“Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time," McQuade said in the announcement. “Hutaree members view local, state, and federal law enforcement as the ‘brotherhood,’ their enemy, and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.”



..........and then there is this side of the story,

FBI reportedly raids militia after threats of violence against Islamic organizations

WASHINGTON, March 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization tonight called on federal law enforcement authorities to release more information about possible threats of violence against American Muslims by a militia group raided this weekend in several states.

[NOTE TO MEDIA PROFESSIONALS: Charges are expected to be unsealed in federal court in Detroit on Monday. If the reported threats to Islamic organizations are confirmed, CAIR will hold a news conference on the issue later on Monday in Washington, D.C. CONTACT: CAIR National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper, 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihoo...@cair.com]

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said at least seven members of a Christian militia group have been arrested in FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force raids and investigations in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana. according to media reports, the “Hutaree” militia was targeted after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.

SEE: seven Arrested in FBI Raids Linked to Christian Militia Group (Detroit News)

tinyurl.com/detnewsmilitia

FBI Arrests 7 with Ties to Christian Militia (CBS)

cbs5.com/national/hutaree.militia.group.2.1595616.html

“Given the recent sharp spike CAIR offices nationwide have observed in anti-Islam rhetoric, it would not be surprising that an extremist group would seek to turn that bigoted rhetoric into violent actions,” said CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad. “At this stage, we are seeking more information about possible threats to American Muslim organizations and are urging the offices of CAIR and other Islamic institutions nationwide to take appropriate security precautions.”

He added that just last week, CAIR called on Republican leaders to repudiate racist taunts by tea party opponents of health care reform targeting a Muslim congressman and another African-American lawmaker on Capitol Hill.

SEE: Muslim Congressman Called ‘N**ger’ by Tea Party Protesters

tinyurl.com/carsonnword

Awad also noted that CAIR recently expressed concern about the reported rise in the number of anti-government and anti-immigrant extremist groups during the past year.

SEE: CAIR Concerned About Reported Rise in Militias, ‘Patriot’ Groups

tinyurl.com/riseinmilitias

CAIR is urging American Muslim individuals and institutions to review advice on security procedures contained in its “Muslim Community Safety Kit.”


for those unfamiliar with CAIR, CAIR is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian organization founded in 1928 that today boasts divisions throughout the world. The Brotherhood has been operating in the United States since the 1960s in a manner fully consistent with its motto: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” Its website makes no bones about the fact that it seeks “the introduction of the Islamic Shariah as the basis for controlling the affairs of state and society.”


http://article.nationalreview.com/print ... ZlNDgxY2Q=



I think this raid is a ruse.

Does it matter WHO they conspired to murder? I thought you always say a crime is a crime!

Gat6

GS78 wrote:OK its now apparent to me(I know I always jump without a net)

There is something really fishy about this story.......

http://freep.com/article/20100329/NEWS0 ... fore-judge

Six Michigan residents, two Ohio residents and an Indiana resident have been indicted for attempted use of weapons of mass destruction in connection with their membership in a Lenawee County Christian militia group, according to investigators,all members of the Hutaree -- conspired to oppose by force the authority of the U.S. government, according to a release by the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Detroit. The indictment claims that the Hutaree planned to kill an unidentified member of local law enforcement and then attack the law enforcement officers who gather in Michigan for the funeral. According to the plan, the Hutaree would attack law enforcement vehicles during the funeral procession with improvised explosive devices rigged with projectiles, which constitute weapons of mass destruction, according to the announcement by U.S. Attorney Barbara L. McQuade.
“Because the Hutaree had planned a covert reconnaissance operation for April which had the potential of placing an unsuspecting member of the public at risk, the safety of the public and of the law enforcement community demanded intervention at this time," McQuade said in the announcement. “Hutaree members view local, state, and federal law enforcement as the ‘brotherhood,’ their enemy, and have been preparing to engage them in armed conflict.”



..........and then there is this side of the story,

FBI reportedly raids militia after threats of violence against Islamic organizations

WASHINGTON, March 28 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ — A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization tonight called on federal law enforcement authorities to release more information about possible threats of violence against American Muslims by a militia group raided this weekend in several states.

[NOTE TO MEDIA PROFESSIONALS: Charges are expected to be unsealed in federal court in Detroit on Monday. If the reported threats to Islamic organizations are confirmed, CAIR will hold a news conference on the issue later on Monday in Washington, D.C. CONTACT: CAIR National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper, 202-744-7726, E-Mail: ihoo...@cair.com]

The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said at least seven members of a Christian militia group have been arrested in FBI-led Joint Terrorism Task Force raids and investigations in Michigan, Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana. according to media reports, the “Hutaree” militia was targeted after its members made threats of violence against Islamic organizations.

SEE: seven Arrested in FBI Raids Linked to Christian Militia Group (Detroit News)

tinyurl.com/detnewsmilitia

FBI Arrests 7 with Ties to Christian Militia (CBS)

cbs5.com/national/hutaree.militia.group.2.1595616.html

“Given the recent sharp spike CAIR offices nationwide have observed in anti-Islam rhetoric, it would not be surprising that an extremist group would seek to turn that bigoted rhetoric into violent actions,” said CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad. “At this stage, we are seeking more information about possible threats to American Muslim organizations and are urging the offices of CAIR and other Islamic institutions nationwide to take appropriate security precautions.”

He added that just last week, CAIR called on Republican leaders to repudiate racist taunts by tea party opponents of health care reform targeting a Muslim congressman and another African-American lawmaker on Capitol Hill.

SEE: Muslim Congressman Called ‘N**ger’ by Tea Party Protesters

tinyurl.com/carsonnword

Awad also noted that CAIR recently expressed concern about the reported rise in the number of anti-government and anti-immigrant extremist groups during the past year.

SEE: CAIR Concerned About Reported Rise in Militias, ‘Patriot’ Groups

tinyurl.com/riseinmilitias

CAIR is urging American Muslim individuals and institutions to review advice on security procedures contained in its “Muslim Community Safety Kit.”


for those unfamiliar with CAIR, CAIR is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, an Egyptian organization founded in 1928 that today boasts divisions throughout the world. The Brotherhood has been operating in the United States since the 1960s in a manner fully consistent with its motto: “Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Quran is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.” Its website makes no bones about the fact that it seeks “the introduction of the Islamic Shariah as the basis for controlling the affairs of state and society.”


http://article.nationalreview.com/print ... ZlNDgxY2Q=



I think this raid is a ruse.

Your post is a most perfect example of your prejudicial thinking: Point 1: Members of a Christian Militia group are arrested basically for seditious activity. Immediately you are suspicious of The government's actions. Event 2: You cite CAIR as behind this and you go on to make certain statements about CAIR, none of which has been proven in a court of law. You point to their indictment as an un-indicted co-conspirator. Then you fail to note that a court found that part of the indictment was unconstitutional.

Conclusion: You know very little about either event, but that did not stop you from reaching the conclusion that it's not the Christian Militia that's the problem but it's the Muslims. Why am I not surprised that that pesky constitution has one meaning when dealing with Christians and another meaning when dealing with Muslims.

Do you care to wait like the rest of us to see what really happened?

Gat6

True to form

First, you, I and everyone else here actually know NOTHING! None of us were part of the group or the raid. All we think we know is what the government is putting out and what do we know about government propaganda? It is a common tactic with prosecutors is convict people in the media long before their trial. Same thing with leveraging lots of charges, throw enough sh*t and something might stick. They make you think you are getting a deal when they know full well they can't prove most of what the charged you with.

Second, grand jury, been there done that, it's a joke. We tried to throw a case out (because it was rediculous) and the prosecutor got the judge to let him "rework" it and bring it back to the next grand jury (which wouldn't be us). How many times was that case before a grand jury? Who knows, but I do know it will keep coming back till someone bites.

Third, Secretary Rice's comment on 9/12 have shown to be false. There were previous unsuccessful attempts to crash planes into buildings and if I recall correctly, a government report/audit suggesting this vulnerability. It wasn't a new idea, but rather one that hadn't been successfully used on a large scale till then.

as you well know ignorance of the law is no excuse

Do you even know where this comes from? I doubt it because if you did you wouldn't use it to justify "conspiresy" charges.

Finally, thank you for describing the America no freedom loving person wants to live in; a country where anyone who expresses dissent is actively monitored by the government because they *could* do something in the future. You come off almost like a distopia novel...

gatlingun6 wrote:Your post is a most perfect example of your prejudicial thinking: Point 1: Members of a Christian Militia group are arrested basically for seditious activity. Immediately you are suspicious of The government's actions.

I think its called innocent till proven guilty...
What you are describing, in a exremely simple way, is the philosphocial differences between a Blackstone and your Benthamite worldview. GS distrusts the government till it can prove its case, while you distrust everyone but the government.

Gat6

True to form

No need to be insulting, your arguement should stand on it's own.

TheGodfather wrote:I find it interesting that when a Muslim murders numerous soldiers on American soil while screaming "Allah, Allah, Allah", the President immediately comes out and tells everyone not to jump to conclusions. But this group hasn't fired a single shot and everyone one is ready to demonize them as "Christian militia".

The only demonizing I see is coming from the usual suspects in this forum. Unless you know different I have not heard the President say anything about this incident. No shots have to be fired to be convicted on the charges alleged. You can't really think that shots had to be fired at someone before they committed a crime?? Did the blind sheik blow up a tunnel, or set off a test charge? Nope he did not, but he is sure serving a life prison sentence. So he was illegally charged and convicted?

Gat6

Does it matter WHO they conspired to murder? I thought you always say a crime is a crime!

Gat6

NO, it does not matter WHO it was, and if the charges are true that they were planning to kill law enforcement officers then I hope they throw them in jail and throw the keys away. I have a lot of friends, family, and neighbors that are police officers and I know that they put their life on the line everyday they go to work. That is just me.

You have to admit though a lot of what has been said with the media twisting and only half covering what is going on is a bit scary for everyone right now.

You think about it last Saturday when we were all out at the S&G and the Deputy Sheriff came out to investigate if he had of taken anything the wrong way our little get together as innocent as it was could have been Blown out of proportion and it would have been us in the news as well. But, everything was handled very well and I think that we all showed professionalism in the way we conducted ourselves made a good first impression to the whole situation.

Anyway we will see what happens to these Mulitia folks and I thik the advice that you gave in your post is very good and should be heeded as I am very certian that if not everyone then a good percentage of folks that attends rallys like this will have their face ran through the computer.

Vern

gunderwood wrote:

gatlingun6 wrote:Your post is a most perfect example of your prejudicial thinking: Point 1: Members of a Christian Militia group are arrested basically for seditious activity. Immediately you are suspicious of The government's actions.

I think its called innocent till proven guilty...
What you are describing, in a exremely simple way, is the philosphocial differences between a Blackstone and your Benthamite worldview. GS distrusts the government till it can prove its case, while you distrust everyone but the government.

Gat6

True to form

No need to be insulting, your arguement should stand on it's own.

Insulting? indeed you should know about that since you insult to talk about one being insulting. I have no reason to be suspicious in this case "YET" do you? I know as much as you which as you said before is very little. Consequently until some evidence gives a reason for suspicion, I'll continue to repeat my bottom line: We'll see.

How often must I use the word alleged as I have repeatedly done all over this case before you understand that means they are innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately what I'm hearing here is a bunch of excuses as to why these Christians are being unfairly maligned by a vindictive government. What I hear in this room is not that they are innocent until proven guilty. What I'm hearing is they are innocent, the charges are trumped up because they are Christians, they were just having fun in the woods, so there is no need of a trial. Really? I'm not surprised because that's the over arching theme of all too many posts in this room, i.e. Christians good, Muslims bad, all non Christians bad! As I have said mix religion and politics and the result is a corrosive, corrupting, poisonous effect on both! If you read everything on that Hutaree website and didn't see anything alarming it's because you didn't want to see it or believe what you read.

If it involves Muslims, the government is being too soft and they have no rights, conversely if it involves Christians the government is violating the Constitution and harassing American citizens. What you all fail to see is that the Constitution is blind to religion. Whatever you think we ought to do to ferret out Islamists who threaten the State can and will be used to go after anyone other group that is perceived to be a threat to the State.

If this was a group of Muslim individuals running around in the woods doing the exact same thing and had been charged with the exact same crime there are those in this forum who are indignant and suspicious now would be cheering the arrest! When the blind Sheik was arrested who in this forum who claim to be naturally suspicious of the Federal government were saying, just a darn minute something doesn't add up here, or I don't have enough information to decide what's going on. The fact is no one! It's my fervent hope that one day some people here will understand that when you are OK with how people different from you are treated under the law, you have actually blessed your group being treated the same way!

In closing everyone ought to lower their voices, we will find out. Or the next thing you know someone will be citing this forum as the reasons these unfortunate Christians have fallen prey to a vindictive government!

Gat6