Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

SgtBill wrote:The trade off in stopping power is Shot Placement. If you hit what you want to hit the first time and where you want to hit and have the heart to follow it up with more rounds you will have stopping power. I carry a Walther .380 with Speer Gold Dot Ammo and if I shoot you 9 times in center mass and the head with it you are going down unless your name is Clark Kent.
Bill

Fair point, but in an adrenaline charged situation how good is your shot placement going to be. You can train all you want but the real thing is different, and if there is ever going to be time when your hands shake that is going to be it. I want something that still generates a lot of damage if my shot goes wide and hits them in the arm. Still a reliable .380 is not a bad choice and it sure beats looking for a rock.

The more I look into this the more I like the Kel Tec seems to offer the best combination of concealment, stopping power, and price. What are everyone thoughts on that?

I am currently looking at an STI Shadow in either .40 or 9mm. 1911 style and single stack with a 3" bbl, as a replacement for my EDC. Was also looking at the Springfield EMP, but like the STI a little better.

Personally...

I totally agree with what has been said already about the .40
handable, powerful, just have a good look at THOSE gold dots...UGH!

and I really like the Walther PPS... although i understand it does not like 180 grain rounds and feed 165 gain much better...i do not know why that is yet, still on the case as i have identifed this as one of my future purchases, along with that new Keltec pistol in 22MAG...30 rounds...! just giddy thinking about it...

And HEY BILL...
FYI...the real thing is different...

Sorry Stuart, just busting chops, as you get to know Sgt Bill, you will understand how silly that statement is to him, specifically...

Maybe I should have been more precise, that statement wasn't specifically towards anyone. Just a general observation about the differences between training and the real thing. And to why I have never subscribe to the theory of good shot placement making up for less effective bullets.

stuart wrote:Maybe I should have been more precise, that statement wasn't specifically towards anyone. Just a general observation about the differences between training and the real thing. And to why I have never subscribe to the theory of good shot placement making up for less effective bullets.

Yes I understand that you are painting with a big brush, but untill you get to know some people on this board and their background's I would use a smaller brush. I mean who would believe that Rick (all in general) was once a navy seal that only worked Solo because no one else could catch up to him swmming in the guppie pool and carrying 200 pounds of C-4 onhis back and 3 automatic weapons in his left hand and 2 pistols in his right and a dive tool between his teeth.
LOL
Bill

stuart wrote:

SgtBill wrote:The trade off in stopping power is Shot Placement. If you hit what you want to hit the first time and where you want to hit and have the heart to follow it up with more rounds you will have stopping power. I carry a Walther .380 with Speer Gold Dot Ammo and if I shoot you 9 times in center mass and the head with it you are going down unless your name is Clark Kent.
Bill

Fair point, but in an adrenaline charged situation how good is your shot placement going to be. You can train all you want but the real thing is different, and if there is ever going to be time when your hands shake that is going to be it. I want something that still generates a lot of damage if my shot goes wide and hits them in the arm. Still a reliable .380 is not a bad choice and it sure beats looking for a rock.

The more I look into this the more I like the Kel Tec seems to offer the best combination of concealment, stopping power, and price. What are everyone thoughts on that?

i have a keltec p3at. 380 and its not a bad gun, but it is small. i mean like REALLY small. i cant even get 2 fingers around the grip. recoil is nothing, but the gun is so small and i cant get a good grip on it so after every 2 or 3 shots i have to stop and readjust my grip. but it shoots straighter out the box then my p11 kel tec. ammo is kinda hard to find around here at least, and its about 25 a box.

SgtBill wrote:

stuart wrote:Maybe I should have been more precise, that statement wasn't specifically towards anyone. Just a general observation about the differences between training and the real thing. And to why I have never subscribe to the theory of good shot placement making up for less effective bullets.

Yes I understand that you are painting with a big brush, but untill you get to know some people on this board and their background's I would use a smaller brush. I mean who would believe that Rick (all in general) was once a navy seal that only worked Solo because no one else could catch up to him swmming in the guppie pool and carrying 200 pounds of C-4 onhis back and 3 automatic weapons in his left hand and 2 pistols in his right and a dive tool between his teeth.
LOL
Bill

Hmmm. I can't believe Bill almost snuck this statement right past me. I'm going fishing in June...200 pounds of C4 about oughtta do it

DING...DING...DING...!!!! The BS detector is going off big time!!!!!!!

Snazuolu wrote:

stuart wrote:

SgtBill wrote:The trade off in stopping power is Shot Placement. If you hit what you want to hit the first time and where you want to hit and have the heart to follow it up with more rounds you will have stopping power. I carry a Walther .380 with Speer Gold Dot Ammo and if I shoot you 9 times in center mass and the head with it you are going down unless your name is Clark Kent.
Bill

Fair point, but in an adrenaline charged situation how good is your shot placement going to be. You can train all you want but the real thing is different, and if there is ever going to be time when your hands shake that is going to be it. I want something that still generates a lot of damage if my shot goes wide and hits them in the arm. Still a reliable .380 is not a bad choice and it sure beats looking for a rock.

The more I look into this the more I like the Kel Tec seems to offer the best combination of concealment, stopping power, and price. What are everyone thoughts on that?

i have a keltec p3at. 380 and its not a bad gun, but it is small. i mean like REALLY small. i cant even get 2 fingers around the grip. recoil is nothing, but the gun is so small and i cant get a good grip on it so after every 2 or 3 shots i have to stop and readjust my grip. but it shoots straighter out the box then my p11 kel tec. ammo is kinda hard to find around here at least, and its about 25 a box.

That is one of the problems with very small guns, but small is what I need/

stuart wrote:

That is one of the problems with very small guns, but small is what I need/

I think this is why the J-frame is still so popular. Small, easy to conceal and you can still get a good grip on the thing!

If I'm not mistaken, the mini glocks .380, 9mm .357, .40, and .45GAP all are the same physical size. About .5 shorter that a G30.

Any thoughts on a Glock 33 chambered in .357 Sig? I could be wrong but I had thought that it was easy to barrel swap to a .40 if ammo gets scarce. I'll have to research this when my internet speeds up.

MountainCat wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the mini glocks .380, 9mm .357, .40, and .45GAP all are the same physical size. About .5 shorter that a G30.

Any thoughts on a Glock 33 chambered in .357 Sig? I could be wrong but I had thought that it was easy to barrel swap to a .40 if ammo gets scarce. I'll have to research this when my internet speeds up.

Nice ballistics, but there has been a lot of noise about some safety issues surrounding that particular round lately. Sorry, but I cannot quote them off the top of my head. I think another .043 of diameter and readily available ammo would sway me toward the .40 S&W.

guitarpicva wrote: Nice ballistics, but there has been a lot of noise about some safety issues surrounding that particular round lately. Sorry, but I cannot quote them off the top of my head.

Could you be a little more specific? Are you talking about KaBooms or issues with the round going past or through the target and going to far?

MountainCat wrote:

guitarpicva wrote: Nice ballistics, but there has been a lot of noise about some safety issues surrounding that particular round lately. Sorry, but I cannot quote them off the top of my head.

Could you be a little more specific? Are you talking about KaBooms or issues with the round going past or through the target and going to far?

I'm very sorry, I cannot. I was hoping someone here could fill in the blanks. I do know it wasn't the bullet performance, it was a cartridge related issue. I'll try to dig it up on another forum and translate.

Va State Police issue the Sig P229 in .357 Sig - also, the Secret Service, Fed Air Marshals, and several others issue the .357 Sig... I've heard good things about it, so I'd be interested in knowing what's wrong with it as well...

CCFan wrote:Va State Police issue the Sig P229 in .357 Sig - also, the Secret Service, Fed Air Marshals, and several others issue the .357 Sig... I've heard good things about it, so I'd be interested in knowing what's wrong with it as well...

I apologize that it is taking me so long to gather this information folks, but I promise I will!

stuart wrote:Maybe I should have been more precise, that statement wasn't specifically towards anyone. Just a general observation about the differences between training and the real thing. And to why I have never subscribe to the theory of good shot placement making up for less effective bullets.

bullets are not effective.

NOW I REMEMBER! The bullet can have a tendency to be pushed into the bottleneck case and cause increased pressures when fired. I don't think there are a lot of cases of kabooms with this, but it is something to consider before purchasing. I think this was due to the practice of clearing and reloading, which, when chambering the first round from the magazine over and over, caused the bullet to be pushed into the case. I guess if you don't follow this practice (which is unneeded anyway), you probably wouldn't have the problem.

CCFan wrote:Va State Police issue the Sig P229 in .357 Sig - also, the Secret Service, Fed Air Marshals, and several others issue the .357 Sig... I've heard good things about it, so I'd be interested in knowing what's wrong with it as well...

.357 Sig is known for overpenetration. It was designed for the State Police units to punch through the engine block of a car. Its the cartridge that just keeps on giving!

That is a pretty broad statement Jim. I do believe that the ammunition that they were made to carry was high power but they can be purchased in lower velocity and weight types. As far as them being pushed back into the caseing with repeated chambering this happens to many types and calibers in Law Enforcement in every state in the country. Not just troopers, but all types of law enforcement.
Bill