Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

My advice is always this: if it is at all possible, go with individual ownership. There are far fewer potential pitfalls with individual ownership than ownership via a legal entity. Entities are more fragile vehicles that require attention over time, and in the case of trusts, are not well established (no grantors have died and reported to the internet how their asset distributions went. This is another way of saying no one, including ATF, is really sure what happens when grantors die.).

If your situation makes individual ownership impossible, that's one thing. I'm in that boat. But if your local sheriff or CA will sign, then absolutely that's the best way to do it. One can look at this way: individual ownership has all the hassle front-loaded. Going with alternate methods means you're maintaining the vehicle for as long as you own the guns, or realistically, as long as you're alive.

As for moving, that depends on whether you're staying in state or moving out of state. In-state moves require no action on your part (if you have a machinegun you must notify the state police). If you're leaving the state most NFA weapons will require authorization to move.

What Diomed said...there are numerous accounts on line where the ATF approved transfer on a bad Trust…now you’re dealing with contraband and a whole boat load of problems. My opinion…not worth it, unless as Diomed mentioned, your LEO won’t sign off.

Diomed wrote:My advice is always this: if it is at all possible, go with individual ownership. There are far fewer potential pitfalls with individual ownership than ownership via a legal entity. Entities are more fragile vehicles that require attention over time, and in the case of trusts, are not well established (no grantors have died and reported to the internet how their asset distributions went. This is another way of saying no one, including ATF, is really sure what happens when grantors die.).

If your situation makes individual ownership impossible, that's one thing. I'm in that boat. But if your local sheriff or CA will sign, then absolutely that's the best way to do it. One can look at this way: individual ownership has all the hassle front-loaded. Going with alternate methods means you're maintaining the vehicle for as long as you own the guns, or realistically, as long as you're alive.

As for moving, that depends on whether you're staying in state or moving out of state. In-state moves require no action on your part (if you have a machinegun you must notify the state police). If you're leaving the state most NFA weapons will require authorization to move.

If we are going to play technicalities, then technically an NFA item transferred to an individual can not be possessed by anyone else. This would mean anyone one else in your household can't legally use that item without you being there. With a trust you can just add them to it.

In fact the way the actual NFA law reads you can't even let them use it when you are there. Currently the BATFE hasn't bothered to go after anyone for this, but technically they could.

Furthermore, if you leave your house you aren't in possession of it now are you. Thus, anyone in your home now has possession of a contraband NFA item unless you lock it up in a manner in which they can not get access to it. I.e. you are the only person with your gun safes combo.

We could go round and round, but in the end it is all a guessing game. The BATFE is a bureaucracy. They make the rules up and they change them at will. Any piece of paper, even if it has the BATFEs signature on it won't protect you in court. E.g. those trust mentioned that have a tax stamp, but are not "legal."

How about another example they have changed over time. "M16" parts in AR15s. A lot of manufacturers ship semi-auto AR15 which have such parts (as defined by the BATFE this week), but are missing the auto-sear. Technically, one could argue that those manufacturers are shipping machine guns (depending on who you talk to at the BATFE) even though they only fire one round per trigger pull.

The bottom line is that if the BATFE wants your a$$, they will bend over backward and even make stuff up to get it. They will reinterpret long standing regulations (not laws mind you) if they have to. No piece of paper is going to protect you. Owning NFA items makes this more likely, but even regular firearms open you up to this.

Don't believe me, Google GOA's David Olofson case.

The BATFE is out of control and has been for decades. They rule by fear and if they decide they want to make an example of you, you're toast. No amount of fancy lawyers or a stack of paperwork 10 feet tall, all with BATFE signatures and stamps, will protect you. All you can do is pray to God that they BATFE doesn't want you because at that point it doesn't matter how straight you have played it, you are going to jail.

I've known some people who agree with that, but change their tune when getting into NFA items because they don't want to draw attention to themselves. You know, brown-nosing the BATFE and such.

Preaching to the choir, as there's nothing you've said I haven't said before. (May want to rethink reffing Olofson, as he wasn't exactly pure as the driven snow.)

I stand by my prior advice. The individual ownership route has seven decades of precedent behind it, and is not going to be challenged on its own - federal courts will indulge government agencies to an obscene degree, but they still have limits, especially when the god of precedent can be invoked. Trusts have a much thinner history and stand on shakier ground as a purely practical matter. There's a lot more room for ATF to make things up where trusts are concerned. Every approach has trade-offs, because like life it ain't perfect.

So yes, if they want you, they can certainly get you; I fail to see why you should give them any more options to attack you with your own money than strictly necessary.

Vahunter wrote:Get the tax stamp first. For some reason a short barrel shotgun is classified as an AOW {any other weapon} and the stamp is only $5.00 unless it went up in the past year. SBR {short barrel rifle} stamp is $200.00. I doubt if you'll a gunsmith that will cut it down before you get the stamp. Big time felony.

this information is incorrect

cigarmanva wrote:

Vahunter wrote:Get the tax stamp first. For some reason a short barrel shotgun is classified as an AOW {any other weapon} and the stamp is only $5.00 unless it went up in the past year. SBR {short barrel rifle} stamp is $200.00. I doubt if you'll a gunsmith that will cut it down before you get the stamp. Big time felony.

this information is incorrect

I concur

http://forum.pafoa.org/nfa-class-3-titl ... ybell.html

First, the legal age for purchasing NFA items from or through a DEALER is 21 years .

NOTE:
The ATF has recently started approving private transfers and/or Form1s to manufacture SBRs, SBS and Silencers to those non-prohibited folks who are 18 and older.
However, weapons that are UNDER the 26" OAL, or a shotgun with a barrel less than 18", or a rifle with a barrel less than 16" are considered "firearms" in PA...meaning they are conceable for CC permit purposes, thus they must be transferred thru a dealer, and must go on the PICS pistol form...so it's unknown at this time if you must be 21 to put something thats NOT a pistol on the PICS form and transfer it through a dealer.

Now, the NFA process is not a licensing or permit process per se.

It's basically paying a federal luxury tax to own a restricted and controlled class of weapon.

The tax is a one time payment to the federal Govt, and all tax records are confidential, ATF does not, and cannot release ownership info without a criminal case, or court order....the info is similar to your IRS 1040.

This tax privacy restriction ONLY counts for the Feds, local LEs that have this information are not restricted legally from using it, or releasing it!

Most folks dont have the patience to go thru the process, or thier local CLEO wont sign, etc....I'll touch more on this later.

tax fees for NFA items are on a set scale, most have been set since 1934 at one rate, others have been changed over the years to add or remove certain weapon classes.

the one time TRANSFER (from dealer to buyer in state, or private seller to buyer in state) tax of $200 is for:
Machineguns
Silencers/Suppressors
Short barrel Shotguns
Short Barrel Rifles
Destructive devices

a one time transfer tax of $5 is for all AOWs "Any other Weapons" which includes smoothbore pistols, cane guns, wallet holsters, briefcase guns, gadget guns, pen guns, etc.

You can indeed make most NFA items with prior approval from the ATF, you dont have to be a licensed dealer or manufacturer to make NFA items for your personal use, you merely have to fill out the paperwork, provide required info, pay the tax, and get approval first.

To MAKE any NFA firearm is a single one time $200 tax PER ITEM.

Didn't I cover all that on the first page?