Page 2 of 3
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:45:32
by ProShooter
viiiball wrote:ProShooter wrote:
It depends on what their ABC license says, and hopefully the ABC Board has coded them correctly based upon 4.1-100
So I did a search on Wegman's and this is what came up:
Privilege Description: Wine and Beer On and Off Premises/Keg Permit
So what does this mean for concealed carry?
All the Wegman's seem to have a restaurant license from the ABC Board, so my "not legal advice" answer would be OC only!
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:56:34
by viiiball
ProShooter wrote:
All the Wegman's seem to have a restaurant license from the ABC Board, so my "not legal advice" answer would be OC only![/b]
You are correct, the ABC site lists the Wegman's establishment type as "Restaurant". This could be a real problem for us CHP holders as I would never have thought this if I had not seen this thread.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:46:45
by KennyS
IMOA if it is illegal do not do it, as if you get caught it gives the non gun more ammo. Personally I would OC in any ABC establishment that is not posted, if there is an issue about it I will never go there again. I may differ from many because I would prefer that the no gun places would just post it plainly as to using the non post to be discriminative to some gun owners but not others. I also like the piece of mind to know I am giving my business to a truly gun friendly establishment, that cares about my personal safety. To me the non gun establishments that don’t post or hide it in the fine print are falsely advertising that they are criminal free zones. I would rather see an establishment be either hot or cold but no in-between as to know where they really stand.
On another note, I can’t stand those in the pants holster, I switch carry from my XD, 1911, and 92FS, I always use a belt holster for that reason. Winter time easy to conceal, summer a little more of a challenge but can be done if needed, but I prefer OC. I have had people tell me before that when they see an OC'd weapon they are more apt to believe it is legal, than when they either see a bump or an accidental partial uncover.
When the legal’s have to sneak around like criminals something is seriously wrong.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:07:15
by youg
zephyp wrote:P99 wrote:Think this will be repealed this year?
Its supposedly on the docket. If it gets past the legislature our new governor will no doubt sign it. I'm certain it will cause some uproar and the antis will beat the drum loudly. My guess is we will begin to see no gun signs at some restaurants where before there were none if it passes.
What do you think the likelyhood of it actually passing? And if it does how do we find out if it went through? So unless posted not to, you'd be good to go?
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:10:24
by Reverenddel
"My guess is we will begin to see no gun signs at some restaurants where before there were none if it passes."
You know what I question? What if a restraurant, that is PRIVATE PROPERTY, put up a sign that says "Authorized Concealed Carry ALLOWED!"
Would that circumvent the "Should I, or shouldn't I?" portion of the program? Because in effect it's as if the OWNER says "I prefer to have people who are carrying to keep them concealed."
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:40:50
by KennyS
I would not support a business/ sign unless it only stated lawful carry allowed.
IMOA just like the gun grabbers pressing to make Gun Manufactures responsible for murder by what is truly not in their control. I wish there were laws to make businesses accountable for damages to lawful citizens being barred from their legal means of self defense. Most in house protection stops at the door, this is not star trek we can not just beam ourselves in and out directly to our vehicles. Same goes for weapons theft, they try and try to make us responsible if a weapon is stolen, if we have to leave it in a car that's not our fault....Just saying
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:46:35
by herohog
We need to print up cards like we have in the VCDL in VA:
and if they already have a "No Guns" sign, suguest they use this one instead:
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 19:34:18
by ProShooter
herohog wrote:We need to print up cards like we have in the VCDL in VA:
and if they already have a "No Guns" sign, suguest they use this one instead:
That VCDL card is inaccurate and needs to be amended.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 20:43:15
by zephyp
youg wrote:zephyp wrote:P99 wrote:Think this will be repealed this year?
Its supposedly on the docket. If it gets past the legislature our new governor will no doubt sign it. I'm certain it will cause some uproar and the antis will beat the drum loudly. My guess is we will begin to see no gun signs at some restaurants where before there were none if it passes.
What do you think the likelyhood of it actually passing? And if it does how do we find out if it went through? So unless posted not to, you'd be good to go?
Here's the link to the VA assembly bill introduced. It gives the text and the status. You can watch this page to see what happens. Will they pass it? I hope so. Likelihood? Better than with the previous assembly. And if it passes and the place I'm entering doesnt have a no guns sign then I'm going to CC right on in. No questions asked.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504 ... +ful+HB505
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 21:11:40
by herohog
ProShooter wrote:That VCDL card is inaccurate and needs to be amended.
Care to elaborate?
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:28:24
by OakRidgeStars
herohog wrote:ProShooter wrote:That VCDL card is inaccurate and needs to be amended.
Care to elaborate?
I'd like to know what's inaccurate as well
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 12:40:54
by ProShooter
herohog wrote:ProShooter wrote:That VCDL card is inaccurate and needs to be amended.
Care to elaborate?
As a Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit Holder, I...
- Have never been convicted of any drug offense.
The Code lists as disqualifiers:
18.2-308 E (7) An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.
(19) An individual not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, who, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application for the permit, was found guilty of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or of a criminal offense of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance, under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.
(20) An individual, not otherwise ineligible pursuant to this section, with respect to whom, within the three-year period immediately preceding the application, upon a charge of any criminal offense set forth in Article 1 (§ 18.2-247 et seq.) of Chapter 7 of this title or upon a charge of illegal possession or distribution of marijuana or any controlled substance under the laws of any state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories, the trial court found that the facts of the case were sufficient for a finding of guilt and disposed of the case pursuant to § 18.2-251 or the substantially similar law of any other state, the District of Columbia, or the United States or its territories.
Someone could have been convicted once of marijuana possession 4 years ago and if that is their only Class 1 misdemeanor, they could get a permit. They could have had 2 marijuana convictions 6 years ago and they'd still be eligible for a permit. That wipes out the "never been convicted" phrase on the card.
_________________________________________________________________________
As a Virginia Concealed Handgun Permit Holder, I...
Have no mental defect or disabilities
The Code lists as a disqualifier:
18.2-308 E (18) An individual who has received mental health treatment or substance abuse treatment in a residential setting within five years prior to the date of his application for a concealed handgun permit.
Someone could easily have a mental defect or disability and have not received mental health treatment for the defect or did receive treatment but it was 6 years ago. There goes the "no mental defect".
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:24:00
by allingeneral
I would say that generally speaking, the card is correct. It's certainly not meant as a "Be all - end all" of discussion topics related to my possession of a CHP, but from a quick, concise, bulleted standpoint, I would say that it makes the grade and the point that it sets out to make - which is that, generally speaking, I qualify for a CHP because of X, Y and Z.
Also, the card clearly applies to me, specifically - because I meet all of the criteria that the card lays out as truths (no drug convictions, no mental problems, no felonies and I passed a background check.) Therefore, I have no qualms about handing that card to someone as it is currently written.
That said - your point is taken. Thank you for the clear citation of law as it relates to the card. Maybe someone should ask VCDLPresident to read your post
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:02:33
by ProShooter
allingeneral wrote:I would say that generally speaking, the card is correct. It's certainly not meant as a "Be all - end all" of discussion topics related to my possession of a CHP, but from a quick, concise, bulleted standpoint, I would say that it makes the grade and the point that it sets out to make - which is that, generally speaking, I qualify for a CHP because of X, Y and Z.
Also, the card clearly applies to me, specifically - because I meet all of the criteria that the card lays out as truths (no drug convictions, no mental problems, no felonies and I passed a background check.) Therefore, I have no qualms about handing that card to someone as it is currently written.
That said - your point is taken. Thank you for the clear citation of law as it relates to the card. Maybe someone should ask VCDLPresident to read your post
The problem is that it conveys the impression that ALL chp holders have met that criteria, which is obviously not the case. If someone finds out differently, it could put all CHP holders in a bad light, in my opinion. If it just said the no felonies/background check part, it would be fine.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:11:30
by novaglock
It never occurred to me that Wegmans was anything other than a grocery store! Good catch! Until the law is changed you could be in technical violation for concealed carry.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:46:25
by albertshank
Greetings Friend and Fellow Patriot!
Do not carry concealed in any Virginia establishment with an ABC license! Period. You may "open carry" in such establishment. (18.2-308, Code)
If you are apprehended and charged or convicted in any respect with violations of 18.2-308, Code of Virginia, there is a 100% chance you'll lose your CHP on conviction and you may forfeit your expensive handgun and ammunition as well.
You are responsible to read and know the law on weapons here in Virginia.
Happy Shooting!
Albert
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:03:20
by novaglock
Albert, I don't believe any of us would knowingly carry where we could lose our CHP. As was pointed out earlier, Wegmans is one of those places where you can easily trip over the wording of the law. I don't believe you are in violation in any establishment with an ABC license, only those with "on premises" consumption. Giant, for example, has an ABC license for off premises consumption. As do state ABC liquor stores. Neither would be considered a restaurant. I would not consider Wegmans a restaurant but the way their license is worded says they are.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:43:14
by wally626
zephyp wrote:youg wrote:zephyp wrote:...
Its supposedly on the docket. If it gets past the legislature our new governor will no doubt sign it. I'm certain it will cause some uproar and the antis will beat the drum loudly. My guess is we will begin to see no gun signs at some restaurants where before there were none if it passes.
"What do you think the likelyhood of it actually passing? And if it does how do we find out if it went through? So unless posted not to, you'd be good to go?"]
There are two bills, one is like last years that passed and was vetoed. It contains language that exempts CPP holders from the requirement not to conceal in restaurants but does require them to abstain from alcohol. The second bill is a provision to allow concealed carry in worship centers if the leaders give you permission and it tacks on a provision to repeal the restaurant provision completely. There would still be code that forbids being intoxicated and carrying. Private property owners could still ban guns if they wish.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:06:33
by ProShooter
albertshank wrote:Greetings Friend and Fellow Patriot!
Do not carry concealed in any Virginia establishment with an ABC license! Period. You may "open carry" in such establishment. (18.2-308, Code)
Albert - We've covered this many times before. Your statement as written in incorrect. The prohibition is only against carrying in restaurants and clubs with an ABC license to serve on the premises, not every place with an ABC license.
Re: Legal Question about Concealing in a resturant.
Posted: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:44:28
by zephyp
ProShooter wrote:albertshank wrote:Greetings Friend and Fellow Patriot!
Do not carry concealed in any Virginia establishment with an ABC license! Period. You may "open carry" in such establishment. (18.2-308, Code)
Albert - We've covered this many times before. Your statement as written in incorrect. The prohibition is only against carrying in restaurants and clubs with an ABC license to serve on the premises, not every place with an ABC license.
Good catch Jim. And it is important to make the distinction between having an ABC license and serving on the premises for consumption...on said premises.