Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by MarcSpaz »

Look at you guys. Arguing about the results of a placbo election that is rigged too boot.

You really want to fix this country, we have to get to the rule makers, not the law makers. The embedded managers and Dept Sec's that are card toting members of the Communist Party of America are the ones who have the biggest impact on how we live.

The POTUS appoints leftist for 10 years and the appointments are always on the Dem cycle. The president is elected by elected officials and those elected official are elected by other elected officials.

You see? The game is rigged by the ruling elite. They put on mock elections to make you feel like you have a choice... the illusion of freedom... and you guys are falling for it, hook, line and sinker.

We MUST amend the Constitution to allow popular vote and we must get freedom loving people in positions of power.

Stop arguing over who's going to spoil the fake election. Don't be the fools they know most of us are.

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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by Viper21 »

ShotgunBlast wrote:
Viper21 wrote:
ShotgunBlast wrote:Wow, a sales pitch based on fear and a call for abandoning your principles. Republicans are sounding more like Democrats everyday.

As for the Republican's slogan of "vote for us because at least we're not the other guy," it goes back farther than T-Mac.

1988: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1992: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
1996: Vote for Dole and we'll fix it next election.
2000: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2004: Vote for Bush and we'll fix it next election.
2008: Vote for McCain and we'll fix it next election.
2012: Vote for Romney and we'll fix it next election.
2016: Vote for Trump and we'll fix it next election.

You know what the definition of insanity is, right?
All of those guys were politicians. Trump isn't. To compare him to the others isn't fair, or honest. Trump is very different than any candidate the republicans have ever put up for the white house. I would certainly expect a Trump white house to be different than any we've seen before, & much more honest.

Let Hillary pick a couple SC Justices, & we'll all be singing the blues....... no matter how you slice it, no matter how one justifies it in their minds, THAT is reality. All other things aside, are you willing to sacrifice the 2A because Trump isn't your guy...??

Maybe you're not a single issue voter. Maybe the 2A isn't THAT single issue to you. Cool. I just don't want to see our rights further diminished by a SC that will surely do exactly that if you add a few HRC appointees..... I don't think anyone being honest would deny that possibility.
Sacrifice the 2A? A bit hyperbolic maybe? Here you had a guy campaign in 2008 on HOPE and CHANGE and Washington DC is more status quo then ever. You think a Hillary presidency is going to change anything?

Hyberbolic..?! LOL. Hillary has come out & said she's for more gun control. There's plenty of evidence of this. 2008....hahahahaha. Obama HAS accomplished what he said he would. Go back & listen to his campaign BS. HE's changed a lot..... for the worse imo.


The point though isn't comparing previous candidates as being politicians vs Trump as not being a politician (although that in itself is a laugh since being a business owner at his level he's very much involved in politics to get his deals done). The guy hasn't held an elected office, but his campaign contributions over his life have definitely made him a politician. Anyways, the point is that rank-and-file Republicans, average people like the folks on this forum, have gone with the policy of "we'll hold our nose for this nominee because they're better than the D nominee and we'll just get a better nominee next election." Obviously that hasn't happened in the last 20 so the point is the Republican party needs a better game plan if they want to attract voters, grow the party, and win elections. So when people say in 2016 "hold your nose and vote for Trump and we'll get a better nominee next cycle" I laugh and give the Republican party a F in credibility.

I ain't saying that. I'm saying he's a better person period. I've never agreed with any person on everything ever. Let alone a politician. However, I trust Trump to make decisions that are more in line with the betterment of our country than Hillary. I'm much more comfortable with Trump's tax plan than Hillary's. With 2 son's in the military, about to be 3..... I'm MUCH more comfortable with Trump as Commander in Chief than Hillary.


As for the SCOTUS fearmongering, we heard the same thing when Obama took office that the world was going to end so I'm sorry if I don't buy it when people say Hillary in the WH will cause the world to end. BHO put two people on the court and 5 Republicans voted for Kagan and 8 voted for Sotomayor. Republicans didn't have control of the Senate then but they do now so as long as the Republicans keep control of the Senate (again, their's to lose) no radical appointments are even being considered. And I hope you'll pardon me if I don't put my faith in potential Trump appointments. Sure he put out a list of potential nominees, but what's to keep him from backing someone not on the list? Nothing about his campaign has indicated rational, coherent thought. Everyone makes him out like he's some big conservative, but what were his political affiliations prior to BHO coming into office? Well, from 2001-2009 he was a registered Democrat. He has changed his political affiliation multiple times over his voting life and up until the last five years most of his political donations went to Democrats. Not exactly the staunch conservative principles I would expect Republicans to support in their nominee, but 2016 is a crazy year.

"fearmongering" huh...?! LOL Exactly how do Sotomayor & Kagan vote..?? How did they vote on the latest 2A case..??? What about immigration..?? Hmmm. I would hardly call that fearmongering. I'd call it reality if Hillary appoints the next 2-3 (or more) Supreme Court Justices. Again, Im MUCH more comfortable with Trump appointing the next few justices than Hillary.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you like Trump, vote for Trump. If you like Clinton, vote for Clinton. If you like Johnson, vote for Johnson. But decades of people on both parties not voting FOR someone but rather AGAINST the other person has just produced worse and worse candidates and here we are today with two of the worst from the major political parties. The world didn't end when T-Mac became the governor and it is not going to end with a HRC presidency, because if it were half of you folks would be making plans to move out of country. We're all just going to do when someone from another party wins - suck it up and hope we win next election.
That's cool man. You vote for who you want, as will I. I'm voting FOR Trump because he's clearly the best candidate left. In my opinion, there's a reason he's hated by the die hard GOPers...... he's as much a threat to them as any liberal. I think too many GOP people want things the way they are. I'm already VERY tired of all this BLM BS.... I'm up to my neck with all this politically correct BS. In addition to having a better (fairer) tax plan, in addition to being committed to border security, in addition to being AGAINTS sanctuary cities, in addition to being pro 2A, in addition to being pro military, I believe Trump will appoint SC justices that are more favorable to the constitution, instead of those wanting to change the constitution......and.... AND... I think he is the best chance to shake things up in Washington, & get rid of this PC BS. I'm very much aware that all people running for office paint a pretty rosy picture of the future with THEM at the helm. However, I trust a guy who's actually done something, actually run a business, actually employed people with his own money at stake, & become successful, than someone with Hillary's track record.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by FiremanBob »

"How long are we supposed to wait for the Republican party to get its act together?"

Boy, is that ever the wrong question. You want to see it fixed, get together with a bunch of your friends, join your local committee, take it over, then your county committee, then organize your movement within the state party to take it over. Insurgent action will change the party. You could be a leader, but it takes effort.

The question asked above is like sitting in front of the TV yelling about how you could coach the Skins to the Super Bowl from your couch.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by ShotgunBlast »

FiremanBob wrote:"How long are we supposed to wait for the Republican party to get its act together?"

Boy, is that ever the wrong question. You want to see it fixed, get together with a bunch of your friends, join your local committee, take it over, then your county committee, then organize your movement within the state party to take it over. Insurgent action will change the party. You could be a leader, but it takes effort.

The question asked above is like sitting in front of the TV yelling about how you could coach the Skins to the Super Bowl from your couch.
It's not the wrong question for the roughly 50% of Americans that identify as independent but could be swayed to vote Republican if they saw Republicans get their act together and present actual solutions. The casual person who's not really into politics but shows up on election day. Republicans need to clean up their party's mess, not ask a bunch of casual independents to do it for them. The independents don't care if the Republican party gets fixed or not. That onus falls on Republicans. If they can't seem to grasp that concept, those independents will continue to vote D. Another percentage of voters (Ron Paul supporters typically) already tried that change from the inside and it didn't work so they moved on to other parties. They figured that if you have to start from scratch, you might as well work in a party that isn't actively trying to thwart your work (2012 GOP convention last minute rule change to stop challenges to the Romney nomination from the Paul and Santorum camps come to mind.)

Here's the most obvious recent example of why the casual American voter doesn't like the Republican party: after 50+ votes in the House to repeal Obamacare, what is the Republican Party's plan to replace it? No one seems to know. Republicans themselves don't even talk about it. There's no PR tour to talk about an actual plan. They've pinned their entire hope on a catchphrase "repeal and replace." With what? No one knows. Hell, even though Obama was flat wrong about it, if you said to the average American "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor" most of them would know who said it and in what context. There is no Republican equivalent to presenting a message out there. Average Americans are definitely feeling the pain from Obamacare and I'm sure many of them could be interested in a Republican alternative if anyone knew there was one. The entire Republican sales pitch of "at least we're not Democrats" isn't working anymore, so Republicans either need to change the sales pitch or get used to losing elections.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by FiremanBob »

The "casual independent" is an intellectually emasculated drone, conditioned as Tocqueville predicted to "participate" in the charade of choosing a tyrannical ruler every four years. He does his best to shut out the world beyond the scope of his immediate family and to focus on his temporal, materialistic pleasures. The mass of these drones has been carefully cultivated by the "Progressive" system of government-run "education". The Left's victory is nearly complete. Allowing Clinton to seize power this year will make it complete.

If that happens, say goodbye to the United States of America. It lasted a little over 200 years. To see the future, look at the countries that are role models for the Democrat party - especially in Latin America.

Where are we going, and why are we in this handbasket?
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by MarcSpaz »

Guys... Seriously.... I guess I need to be more blunt.

Why the hell are you arguing with each other about this? The popular vote means absolutely NOTHING. It has ZERO to do with who the next POTUS will be, but your acting like it's the only thing that does. The election is a joke... a sham.

If you want to debate politics... fine by me, but you look foolish having this conversation.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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When Obama gets elected the treachery will be complete. When Clinton gets elected the treachery will be complete. When the next Democrat nominee gets elected the treachery will be complete. *yawn*

If these independents are such drones, are you conceding the Republican party's ability to sway a drone by presenting actual ideas? If they can't seem to accomplish that, why do they even bother running candidates in elections? The Republican base itself isn't big enough to get Republicans elected.

The one pattern I notice in these threads is how little blame actual Republicans accept for their party's losses. It's always a third party, or the biased liberal media, rigged elections, or independent drones (quote an oxymoron). I know if my guy loses, we need to do some work to get a better result next election. I could easily complain about how the media doesn't cover him nearly as much as the other political parties, how national polls rarely include him in the polls, or that it's not fair that he isn't included in the debates even though he's on enough ballots to win the election, but those are things beyond my control. All I can do is work within my party on things that I can control and lo and behold, he's raising more money this year, he's getting more media exposure this year, he's being included on more polls this year, and he may even be in the debates this year.

Notice that all that doesn't happen without swaying some "independent drones." Just imagine what Republicans could do as big as their platform is and as deep as their resources are if they applied the same work ethic to bettering their party.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by ShotgunBlast »

MarcSpaz wrote:Guys... Seriously.... I guess I need to be more blunt.

Why the hell are you arguing with each other about this? The popular vote means absolutely NOTHING. It has ZERO to do with who the next POTUS will be, but your acting like it's the only thing that does. The election is a joke... a sham.

If you want to debate politics... fine by me, but you look foolish having this conversation.
Calm down dude. Sometimes some lazy Sunday morning posting is just some lazy Sunday morning posting.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by MarcSpaz »

I hope so. You guys are the last bastion of sanity in my life. LoL

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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by SHMIV »

Lmao. Sanity, huh?

https://youtu.be/5VO6bI-xrj8

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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by kelu »

Michael, you're wrong that Hillary won't change much.
My home country was one of the top in Europe between WWI and WWII. I won't get into details, I'm not a chatty person.
Short 10 years after, communists took over, and it became a shithole. Millions of political prisoners, houses, land and animals confiscated, you name it. Country never recovered, even now after 27 years after communism fell. What is worst, it destroyed the morality and the hope of the people, making them government dependent zombies.
Votes for elections there are now sold with free buckets, umbrellas or beer.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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kelu wrote:Michael, you're wrong that Hillary won't change much.
My home country was one of the top in Europe between WWI and WWII. I won't get into details, I'm not a chatty person.
Short 10 years after, communists took over, and it became a shithole. Millions of political prisoners, houses, land and animals confiscated, you name it. Country never recovered, even now after 27 years after communism fell. What is worst, it destroyed the morality and the hope of the people, making them government dependent zombies.
Votes for elections there are now sold with free buckets, umbrellas or beer.

And if Sanders were the president I would be more likely to agree with you, but we have two moderates running so I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Obama is to the left of Hillary and even though Obamacare got rammed through and he put two justices on the SCOTUS, he paid a high political cost in Congress going to the Republicans which put an end to much of his agenda (when they weren't being spineless) and he has the honor of being the President with the most unanimous Supreme Court smackdowns, even with his picks on the bench. Even the most emotional mass shooting on this soil couldn't get Congress to budge on gun control, and in fact caused many states to loosen their gun laws. Hillary is going to continue a lot of Obama's policies, which themselves were a continuation of Bush's policies while waiting for opportunities to inject her own agenda. As long as Republicans keep control in Congress, that will keep those opportunities to a minimum.

Honestly folks, with all of the gloom and doom talk about HRC if people think she was really the threat they depict her as you would think everyone here is packing up to move somewhere else while they still can. Everyone here knows that there is a strong possibility of either 4 or 8 years of HRC in office yet we're still going about our daily lives. If she does win there will be a lot of grumbling about it on this forum, but that's about it.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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Probably that is what Australians thought too, that they will go with their lives. And while they can still have some rifles, they kissed their handguns goodbye.
I am paranoid? Maybe, because I have lived things than many here think it's not possible.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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kelu wrote:Probably that is what Australians thought too, that they will go with their lives. And while they can still have some rifles, they kissed their handguns goodbye.
I am paranoid? Maybe, because I have lived things than many here think it's not possible.
No, I don't think that's what Australians thought too. They were horrified by a tragic event and while government actors took advantage of that crisis, the people generally went along with the government's plan. We had a similar emotional scenario play out here after Sandy Hook and every attempt at any kind of gun control failed.

You have to admit that there's quite a bit of difference between how firearms are Constitutionally-protected here and that they were not in Australia and while everyone envisions Democrats as a Constitution-shredding Godzilla monster, that's still a huge hurdle to get over. Also while Americans in general don't mind some restrictions place on firearms in the US, only the fringe on the left wants to see an outright ban. If you ask the average American about banning pistols you'll find a lot of people that would say that's going too far. Australians voluntarily handed in their firearms during the buyback period.

Also, while the party in charge of Australia's legislation did suffer some immediate political fallout after the ban, nothing has really been done to overturn it and Australians in general back the legislation. I don't particularly agree with their decision, but if that's the society they want to have, let them have the society they want to have.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

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Sanders is a dupe - he believes the socialist propaganda. Clinton and the other masterminds of the American Left have no such delusions. They don't believe in socialism. They believe only in power, and they have mastered the art of political maneuvering to obtain it.

As a reminder, here's a part of Tocqueville's prediction of how tyranny will be established in America:
I seek to trace the novel features under which despotism may appear in the world. The first thing that strikes the observation is an innumerable multitude of men, all equal and alike, incessantly endeavoring to procure the petty and paltry pleasures with which they glut their lives. Each of them, living apart, is as a stranger to the fate of all the rest; his children and his private friends constitute to him the whole of mankind. As for the rest of his fellow citizens, he is close to them, but he does not see them; he touches them, but he does not feel them; he exists only in himself and for himself alone; and if his kindred still remain to him, he may be said at any rate to have lost his country...

Above this race of men stands an immense and tutelary power, which takes upon itself alone to secure their gratifications and to watch over their fate. That power is absolute, minute, regular, provident, and mild. It would be like the authority of a parent, if, like that authority, its object was to prepare men for manhood; but it seeks, on the contrary, to keep them in perpetual childhood; it is well content that the people should rejoice, provided they think of nothing but rejoicing. For their happiness such a government labors; but it chooses to be the sole agent and the only arbiter of that happiness; it provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and subdivides their inheritances; what remains, but to spare them all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living? Thus it every day renders the exercise of the free agency of man less useful and less frequent; it circumscribes the will within a narrower range and gradually robs a man of all the uses of himself. The principle of equality has prepared men for these things; it has predisposed men to endure them and often to look on them as benefits...

They devise a sole, tutelary, and all-powerful form of government, but elected by the people. They combine the principle of centralization and that of popular sovereignty; this gives [men] a respite; they console themselves for being in tutelage by the reflection that they have chosen their own guardians...By this system the people shake off their state of dependence just long enough to select their master and then relapse into it again...

Subjection in minor affairs breaks out every day and is felt by the whole community indiscriminately. It does not drive men to resistance, but it crosses them at every turn, till they are led to surrender the exercise of their own will. Thus their spirit is gradually broken and their character enervated...It is in vain to summon a people who have been rendered so dependent on the central power to choose from time to time the representatives of that power; this rare and brief exercise of their free choice, however important it may be, will not prevent them from gradually losing the faculties of thinking, feeling, and acting for themselves, and thus gradually falling below the level of humanity.
We are this close to the full realization of his nightmare prophecy.
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by kelu »

ShotgunBlast wrote: how firearms are Constitutionally-protected here and that they were not in Australia
That largely depends on how Constitution is interpreted by the Supreme Court justices.
There are plenty cases when they went against what the founders wanted. Just look at latest dissent for Obama immigration polices; while they are blatantly against laws and Constitution, you have some socialist justices that voted for. Thankfully, they were not many enough, but that can change soon.
Law is nowadays something that can be interpreted and applied as it served the interests.

Edit: look how much the rule of law matters in Virginia: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-2 ... tered-vote
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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by dusterdude »

Kelu,i wish you had a national voice

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Re: Will the Libertarians cause the election of Hillary?

Post by kelu »

It's not just happening that democrats push for mass immigration. Most of the new immigrants tend to vote democrat. If this is allowed to continue, there will be no more opposition.
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