Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

I don't understand why a cop who has the target acquired, it is supposed to be highly trained, has the finger on trigger and can send a bullet in max 0.2 sec NEEDS to shoot before seeing a gun in opponent hand. The opponent will need at least half second to be able to fire, maybe even 3-5 sec if the safety was on. Too many times it was an unnecessary death, and the victim was not even armed.
And the cops signed up to be in danger. The "needs to go to home at night" it's a lame excuse, especially when you outnumber, out-power your "enemy".

do a little force on force training and you'll be surprised with how quickly a weapon can appear, and how you can get hit by something you never saw.

jdonovan wrote:do a little force on force training and you'll be surprised with how quickly a weapon can appear, and how you can get hit by something you never saw.

People make fun of airsofters (AKA MILSIM's), but going at it with a few pre-teens and early teens that are not afraid of getting hurt will definitely get that point across. LOL

You know, if that was a blue uniform that did the shooting and the fallen suspect was of different skin color, the president would be flying down his forensic experts to the motivations/declarations of said shooting.

I just watched the video again and focused on the vehicle leaving the road, I am not so sure he didn't hit the LEO. The truck and person were covered by the black bar when vehicle may have struck individual. I then focused on the exit from the truck until suspect was down and I wouldn't be able to convict anybody of manslaughter based on what I watched. Nobody has even convinced me which LEO fired at the suspect. The person to the far left was off screen while suspect was reaching in jacket. The LEO moving from right didn't raise arms until suspect was reaching in jacket. While he was moving he wasn't moving straight towards suspect, but at an angled path to intercept the suspect in the direction the suspect was moving.

What we don't have is the audio of who was yelling what to the suspect and what the suspects response was. We also don't know of the suspect's mental condition. That individual had just been in a sudden stop/ potential airbag deployment situation, so the suspect could have ringing in the ears, and a potential concussion. at least one LEO on right of truck may have been struck and was at least a very near miss of being struck. jdonavan got it right, we get to watch it slow motion over and over and get to pick it to pieces, those guys were on the ground, with adrenaline flowing, having seen someone make a high speed approach to their roadblock and attempt to go around it. They were living in real time. They don't have the luxury of second chances.

There is a huge difference between being on a 2 way range and paint ball or air soft. Only one of them can get you dead...

grumpyMSG wrote:There is a huge difference between being on a 2 way range and paint ball or air soft. Only one of them can get you dead...

While true... for the sake of making a point, I wouldn't put untrained people on a two way range. The only reason I mentioned it is because that's the closest most people will ever get to being down range.

MarcSpaz wrote:So, it is starting to look like the guy who was killed was charging police after trying to escape by vehicle.

Mike Arnold, Bundy's attorney, read a statement afterward in which Bundy urged those still at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge to leave.

These charges are BS. They are trying to get two people out of jail who are victims of double jeopardy... actually, its worse than double jeopardy. These guys got convicted of a crime. They paid their fines and did their jail time. After they were release and paid their debt, some bureaucrat decided that they didn't spend enough time in jail, even though they served their sentence, and these two guys went back to jail a second time, for the same crime, and were completely deprived of a luxury of double jeopardy via a second trial.

Our government is way out of control and they should not be getting away with this. The sad party of the whole "stand-off" is, the protest became the story and no one really realizes that two guys had their constitutional rights grossly violated to the point that they are being punished in prison twice for one crime.

To make things worse, there is actually evidence that the two men are likely innocent but the prosecution refused to disclose this dependence in discovery and the courts are refusing to take appropriate action to hear an appeal and force discovery.

When does this crap end? Obviously its not the entire government and all of the law enforcement community, but if the people don't take a stand to have their voices heard and expose the corruption, it will never end.

Yup. It will never end. The government always wins period. Even when they lose, they win. Anyone going up against them 90+% of the time, are going against a stacked deck. Anyone who doesn't think that the government can & does violate peoples rights, hide & create evidence, is naïve. It's only select situations that get the public outcry/positive media coverage to prevent such acts from happening. Typically, they must fit a political agenda/narrative that high ranking government officials desire. ie: Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown. When the rarity happens, & the government gets exposed, or is actually wrong..... they just cover it up & get the media spin doctors to help their cause, ie: Ruby Ridge, Waco

Our forefathers would have already made a move by now. Sadly, the last attempt to prevent an all powerful, over reaching, tyrannical federal government that could trample the constitution without hesitation, was defeated & capitulated in April 1865. Over the last 150yrs, it has grown tremendously in power, & has become the government that many of our forefathers feared dating back to the 18th century & our rebellion vs England.

Horrifying really.

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History is full of tyrants, dictators, oppressive governments. Then time comes, all fail. All it needs is to be bad enough for the average people, and to have an alternative. Of course, it's bloody and painful, but that is the price to pay for allowing them to become what they are.

What I don't get is... There are English speaking countries all over the world that have socialist governments, single-payer healthcare, socialised hpusing, food, etc... 60%-70% tax rates, and all the other goodie that go with it. Why don't these bleeding heart jack wagons just go to one of them? Why do the have to screw this country up too?

I seriously mean it. There are people waiting in line for their "free" toilet paper in a small town in Venezuela right now. They can just fly down there and get some. Oh! That's right. I forgot. Along with all that free stuff in Venezuela, their murder rate is 54.0, almost all with guns even though they are illegal. Everyone lives in poverty except people in goverment, regardless of the fact that they are the richest oil producing country in the world. Violent crime is so high they stopped keeping track. And all that social medicine gets you a death sentence for anything more that the flu or a broken bone. Now it's all coming back to me.

Yey! Go Socialism!

I don't know about the land situation, but he is right about socialism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAWhF3k ... =60.342494

Some more info on this. Footage from the interior of the vehicle.
I hear 2 shots 1 second after he exit the vehicle (5:30 in the movie), long before he put a hand down. Was he shot and he put the hand to the wound?

https://youtu.be/YWLHiU8gYWY

That's what I have been saying.

Just watched it again. I still say they flat out murdered him.

MarcSpaz wrote:That's what I have been saying.

Just watched it again. I still say they flat out murdered him.

Yup.

I was sure he was reaching for something, too, until hearing this audio paired up with it. They started shooting and kept shooting...

Wow.....murder is still murder even when done by people in uniform carrying badges.

How disturbing and disgusting.

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Exactly. Just because the dude said "you're gonna have to shot me", you don't have to shoot him. The guy was obviously upset. The people he was with said he was not armed and LE didn't debunk that statement. Its complete crap.

Trigger happy cops are killing indiscriminately, but since last year they have became targets too. And they can't win, so they must change their mentality. And the first responsibility is on the shoulder of the cops that are still not corrupted and still has a brain, not eaten by steroids, to throw out the bad apples, before it's too late. I have witnessed the revenge against cops after the fall of the communism, and it wasn't pretty.

The problem isn't with law enforce as a whole... but the fact that it happens as often as it does is troubling.

I wonder if it's seemingly getting worse or if the invent of modern communication combined with local, state and federal LE agencies becoming more transparent simply puts it out to the public more frequently?

I finally got around to responding to the synced video and my thoughts are: That man was as big a fool as any I have watched. He was driving a vehicle with kids and other adults in it, placing them in danger. Simple basic compliance with law enforcement would have prevented the risk and stupid loss of his life. He continually taunted the LEOs involved with "Shoot me, go ahead and shoot me" or "You're going to have to shoot me". The synced video had several shots fired as he exited the vehicle, however he did not go down. Why is that? No glass shattered in the vehicle, so they weren't firing at the passenger compartment. Right up until the moment before he went down you could here him taunting, while he was reaching into the jacket. If anything that video shows exactly why the LEOs were justified in firing.

Now I am going to ask you to think about your responses to this case and another case, the Michael Brown incident in Ferguson MO. In that case many people had no trouble assuming a 6' 5" 290 pound 18 year old, a boy in the press, was just a violent thug and ended up getting shot in a justified shooting. In this case we have a middle aged white male who was part of an armed group occupying an empty gov't building, who may or may not have had weapons in the vehicle or on his person. In my opinion, his actions contributed to his own death just the same as Michael Brown's.