The Death Penalty

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novasig226r
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by novasig226r »

GS78 wrote:well police officers do have a lot more people looking for revenge than the average 'joe' however, I say that only because I understand "why" they can carry everywhere....as for the law abiding 'joe' I think he too should be allowed to carry where ever he wants also.
That's a good point. I love debates. It helps me to see all angles - including the ones that I miss!

Is it too much to ask that the law be amended to state that a law-abiding citizen may open carry or, if issued and in possession of a valid CHP, may carry concealed in any establishment or on any property provided that the owner of said establishment or property has not posted such carry method(s) prohibited?

This would allow us to carry anywhere except: federal property, courthouses, post offices, airport terminals, schools, or any place posted.

This would alleviate a lot of frustrations. Open carry (or concealed for CHP holders) any damn where you want except the five biggies and any place that has clearly posted.

Excuse me for a moment, the front desk just called. I have to extend my stay at the Holiday Inn Express.
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Re: The Death Penalty

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novasig226r wrote:
GS78 wrote:well police officers do have a lot more people looking for revenge than the average 'joe' however, I say that only because I understand "why" they can carry everywhere....as for the law abiding 'joe' I think he too should be allowed to carry where ever he wants also.
That's a good point. I love debates. It helps me to see all angles - including the ones that I miss!

Is it too much to ask that the law be amended to state that a law-abiding citizen may open carry or, if issued and in possession of a valid CHP, may carry concealed in any establishment or on any property provided that the owner of said establishment or property has not posted such carry method(s) prohibited?

This would allow us to carry anywhere except: federal property, courthouses, post offices, airport terminals, schools, or any place posted.

This would alleviate a lot of frustrations. Open carry (or concealed for CHP holders) any damn where you want except the five biggies and any place that has clearly posted.

Excuse me for a moment, the front desk just called. I have to extend my stay at the Holiday Inn Express.
I'd be happy if they passed CC in establishments that serve alcohol. I avoid a lot of places merely because here in NOVA it causes a big stir and you get alot of unwanted attention. Too many liberals here and too many over react to a law abiding citizen exercising their rights - unless of course its free speech AND you're saying something they agree with.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by GS78 »

I remember watching the old westerns on TV growing up.....and the bad guys would ride in to town and the marshall would meet them out in the street and say " ok Dalton, you know your boys have to turn their guns in before you go to rosies saloon, now drop 'em right or there'll be trouble"....



I also remember my grandfather saying " dont matter how much things change, they stay the same.." :whistle:



( so, does this mean we're the bad guys?... :whistle: )
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by GS78 »

novasig226r wrote:
GS78 wrote:well police officers do have a lot more people looking for revenge than the average 'joe' however, I say that only because I understand "why" they can carry everywhere....as for the law abiding 'joe' I think he too should be allowed to carry where ever he wants also.
That's a good point. I love debates. It helps me to see all angles - including the ones that I miss!

Is it too much to ask that the law be amended to state that a law-abiding citizen may open carry or, if issued and in possession of a valid CHP, may carry concealed in any establishment or on any property provided that the owner of said establishment or property has not posted such carry method(s) prohibited?

This would allow us to carry anywhere except: federal property, courthouses, post offices, airport terminals, schools, or any place posted.

This would alleviate a lot of frustrations. Open carry (or concealed for CHP holders) any damn where you want except the five biggies and any place that has clearly posted.

Excuse me for a moment, the front desk just called. I have to extend my stay at the Holiday Inn Express.

you know, I'll bet there is some online course or video someone could watch, and instantly become a "certified" special security specialist, who just might be "qualified" to .... :whistle: ... skirt some of these restrictions......just guessing.... :whistle:
'those who hammer their guns into plows , will plow for those who don't'






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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by novasig226r »

GS78 wrote:you know, I'll bet there is some online course or video someone could watch, and instantly become a "certified" special security specialist, who just might be "qualified" to .... :whistle: ... skirt some of these restrictions......just guessing.... :whistle:
Hmmm... now that you mention it...

I'm wondering if Personal Protective Service licensees can get around this. It would suck being a bodyguard and not be able to carry should your principal happened to go in a "safe gun-free" zone. Looking at the code, however, they don't enumerate DCJS licensed security specialists as exempt.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by GS78 »

GS78 wrote:
novasig226r wrote:
GS78 wrote:well police officers do have a lot more people looking for revenge than the average 'joe' however, I say that only because I understand "why" they can carry everywhere....as for the law abiding 'joe' I think he too should be allowed to carry where ever he wants also.
That's a good point. I love debates. It helps me to see all angles - including the ones that I miss!

Is it too much to ask that the law be amended to state that a law-abiding citizen may open carry or, if issued and in possession of a valid CHP, may carry concealed in any establishment or on any property provided that the owner of said establishment or property has not posted such carry method(s) prohibited?

This would allow us to carry anywhere except: federal property, courthouses, post offices, airport terminals, schools, or any place posted.

This would alleviate a lot of frustrations. Open carry (or concealed for CHP holders) any damn where you want except the five biggies and any place that has clearly posted.

Excuse me for a moment, the front desk just called. I have to extend my stay at the Holiday Inn Express.

you know, I'll bet there is some online course or video someone could watch, and instantly become a "certified" special security specialist, who just might be "qualified" to .... :whistle: ... skirt some of these restrictions......just guessing.... :whistle:
I bet you can find something....... :whistle:
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by goodoleboy »

hmmm....>.> LET THE SEARCH BEGIN
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Re: The Death Penalty

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goodoleboy wrote:This is a piece I wrote at the end of my senior year in high school. It was supposed to be an editorial on the death penalty but I believe I start drifting around the middle a little. Amazing the stuff you find when you look through your documents folder.



The death penalty. Just mentioning this phrase in a crowd is sure to spark a debate on the ethics of killing another human being. Never mind that in this country, unlike others, to even be considered for the death penalty that person has to have already killed someone themselves. Now, in my logic at least, if you kill someone for any reason other than self defense there’s nothing to stop you from doing it again, so you should die as not just a punishment, but as a preventative measure as well, not in this day and age though. The liberal media has misconstrued the public so much that the old “eye for an eye” feeling that was so prevalent in this country from it’s beginning is starting to wane into non-existence, but there are those like me who believe in the “eye for an eye” way of thinking and that it should cover not just murder, but other harsh crimes that are just punished by the proverbial “slap on the wrist”, such as rape, child abuse, and multiple offenders who commit violent crimes. Another thing that makes no sense to many is the fact that even after convicted, those that do get the death penalty have five or six chances to get it overturned through appeals, all the while sitting on death row, wasting taxpayer money as they’re fed and clothed while spending more taxpayer money on their appeals process. I say we do away with the multiple appeals and drop the number down to two, add that to a limit on how long you can sit on death row, say two years, and that’s hundreds of thousands of dollars saved right there. While were at it though we could also bring back the old ways of the death penalty, firing squads, the electric chair, the gas chamber, even hangings. Lethal injection is a method of execution that, in my opinion, doesn’t actually punish the offender, because by the time they die, they’re already asleep. Let the families of the victims choose how the person dies, not the offender, there’s no closure when a family whose loved ones were killed in a violent act watches the person that did calmly die in their sleep. I say if you’re state doesn’t have the death penalty, work your hardest to get one, and if your state does have it, try to get it to cover a wider range of crimes, like rape and other violent crimes. The only way to curb criminal behavior is not to put them in jail or on death row for 15 years, but to set an example that if you kill or rape someone, we will kill you. Some people deserve a second chance, but then again there’s a small group who don’t.
Aside from the fact that you misconstrued what "eye for an eye" means, you go on to want a "life for an eye" doctrine.
You are right that executing a murderer is a deterrent of one.
If your 2 year limit for appeals from the time of conviction to execution was in place innocent people would die. Of course, you could say well we would never know they were innocent because we executed them before exonerating evidence was noted. However, knowing that innocent men have already been found beyond your 2 year limit, would that give pause to what you would like to see?
May I assume your philosophy is crime and retribution, rather than crime and punishment? We are supposedly a civilized society that's why families and loved ones don't get to decide the method of execution. But in your defense what if the loved ones wanted stoning, drawn and quartered, boiling oil, etc. Is this OK with you?
Your bottom line seems to be the harsher you are the greater the deterrence. That's fine, the problem is that position is not supported by the facts. Most police chiefs will tell you that the death penalty does nothing to deter crime, and that it's the least effective crime fighting tool. But it's the easiest one for politicians to show they are tough on crime. Murderers tend not to do a cost benefit analysis before killing someone.
Most research seems to show that the certainty of punishment is more of a deterrence than the severity of punishment.
Increasing the number of crimes for which the death penalty could be used could have a perverse effect to actually increase the murder rate.
Finally, I can tell you are not a criminal, but you did say you wrote it in high school. In your piece you put a criminal into your shoes instead of the other way around. Just a few thoughts.

Respectfully, Jim
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Re: The Death Penalty

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Thank you very much for your input. I did write this about 4 years ago now, and seeing as I'll have to write another one of these sometime soon I may have to revisit this topic. In that 4 years I have learned much about the concepts which I only was just starting to think about then. It seems to me that a revisit of this topic could yield different results.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by gatlingun6 »

It may well do that. I don't have any real issue with States or people who want the death penalty. But what's troubling are these cases where an innocent guy spent any number of years on death row only to be exonerated. Maybe if we had what's called Capital Courts with certain credentials required of any attorney that practices there my concern would be less. But still in the back of my mind is the idea that the system has to hit perfection! How does that happen when our so-called criminal justice system is a contradiction in that it sure isn't justice and doesn't do that well in capturing and trying the accused.

People would be shocked if they knew how few cases ever went to trial. The overwhelming majority are plea bargained away!

Finally would you believe there are family members of murdered luved ones who are now against the death penalty?

I guess I would just like to see both sides of the issue be intellectually honest about it. It would seem the American public has spoken in that fewer and fewer juries are returning the death penalty. I guess most people know it's more expensive to put an accused to death over life in prison.

To me it boils down to can you accept executing someone who was not guilty. What then?

Respectfully Jim
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Re: The Death Penalty

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"To me it boils down to can you accept executing someone who was not guilty. What then?"



It seems that this falls in place with having to set free someone who is guilty, because of a technicality.
This system is not perfect, and will never be as long as humans run it, but that shouldn't keep us from striving for perfection.

This union of ours is more perfect than any others I've run across lately...
I believe I'll stay here for the time being.
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Re: The Death Penalty

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Indeed. Having any kind of judicial system with any kind of punishments - especially capitol - places a unique responsibility on us to make sure its perfect. And, it cant be perfect. Not sure how to solve this one, but the problem of those unfit for society and the burden they create for others to maintain them in prison until they die of natural causes (or exonerated) must be addressed.

IMO we can lump these two problems together. They are complimentary:

1 - an innocent person sitting on death row
2 - a guilty person being released because of procedural error

Neither is fair...
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Re: The Death Penalty

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goodoleboy wrote:Thank you very much for your input. I did write this about 4 years ago now, and seeing as I'll have to write another one of these sometime soon I may have to revisit this topic. In that 4 years I have learned much about the concepts which I only was just starting to think about then. It seems to me that a revisit of this topic could yield different results.
If you are currently in college and are influenced by your "professor" you may very well revisit this topic and your paper with a new appreciation for murdering scumbags like Che , Mao, Joeseph Stalin, Fidel or Adolf. Chances are you will be "taught" from the leftist position all about the virtues of "freedom fighters" like Che, and Mao. They will glorify their existences as an intigral part of "the revolutions" in Cuba, and china etc ....what they won't tell you is that they were psychopathic serial mass murderers and ignorant . Somehow they always leave that part out. Don't believe everything you hear from so-called academia, and be careful of others tickling your ears with nonsense. Police chiefs are not experts on the merits of capital punishment. Have innocent people been put to death? possibly, but in the words of the Great billy clinton "it depends on the meaning of innocent". Perhaps all death row inmates should be doubled checked with several different types of DNA evidence immediately upon conviction, leaving no doubt to their guilt, and thus cutting the time for relentless and fruitless appeals , which is where the ridiculous costs come in to play. Of course that would also cut into the profit margins of some very pricey attorneys fees and lead to immediate objections from trial lawyers associations.
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Re: The Death Penalty

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zephyp wrote:Indeed. Having any kind of judicial system with any kind of punishments - especially capitol - places a unique responsibility on us to make sure its perfect. And, it cant be perfect. Not sure how to solve this one, but the problem of those unfit for society and the burden they create for others to maintain them in prison until they die of natural causes (or exonerated) must be addressed.

IMO we can lump these two problems together. They are complimentary:

1 - an innocent person sitting on death row
2 - a guilty person being released because of procedural error

Neither is fair...
Some people focus on "innocent " people ending up on Death row.... I really wonder how many innocent people have ever even seen death row.... Lets say joe blow is accused of a capital offense. He goes through a thorough trial process and presents his evidence, but he is convicted for the crime regardless. hUsually his lawyer(s) will immediately file an appeal, and if its a death penalty case I believe its automatic unless the convicted relinquishes....stay with me here..., if the convicted man is taken to a hospital and gives hair, saliva,skin,semen, blood samples...to match against crime scene evidence(likely already done in the case of someone who claims innocence) and none of HIS DNA is found to be present, then and only then should the appeal process procede. The anti-capital punishment people always look back twenty years to cases where dna evidence was not used widely. I agree in those cases there were problems and should be reviewed and tested where applicable, however in todays world, there is NO argument. I would even go as far as to say that it might very well be a defense tactic to withhold bodily samples in order to try to win on appeal with some technicality. Imagine if we could cut down on the amounts of appeals and multiple appeals, what would trial lawyers say ?
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by frac »

I say use a pneumatic hammer, like in No country for old men. It's what we use to slaughter cattle, right. Much cheaper than the electric chair, and easier than injection.
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Re: The Death Penalty

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frac wrote:I say use a pneumatic hammer, like in No country for old men. It's what we use to slaughter cattle, right. Much cheaper than the electric chair, and easier than injection.
The method of death is not the issue. You could use a framers hammer for all I care. That would also require a good smock.
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Re: The Death Penalty

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GS78 wrote:
zephyp wrote:Indeed. Having any kind of judicial system with any kind of punishments - especially capitol - places a unique responsibility on us to make sure its perfect. And, it cant be perfect. Not sure how to solve this one, but the problem of those unfit for society and the burden they create for others to maintain them in prison until they die of natural causes (or exonerated) must be addressed.

IMO we can lump these two problems together. They are complimentary:

1 - an innocent person sitting on death row
2 - a guilty person being released because of procedural error

Neither is fair...
Some people focus on "innocent " people ending up on Death row.... I really wonder how many innocent people have ever even seen death row.... Lets say joe blow is accused of a capital offense. He goes through a thorough trial process and presents his evidence, but he is convicted for the crime regardless. hUsually his lawyer(s) will immediately file an appeal, and if its a death penalty case I believe its automatic unless the convicted relinquishes....stay with me here..., if the convicted man is taken to a hospital and gives hair, saliva,skin,semen, blood samples...to match against crime scene evidence(likely already done in the case of someone who claims innocence) and none of HIS DNA is found to be present, then and only then should the appeal process procede. The anti-capital punishment people always look back twenty years to cases where dna evidence was not used widely. I agree in those cases there were problems and should be reviewed and tested where applicable, however in todays world, there is NO argument. I would even go as far as to say that it might very well be a defense tactic to withhold bodily samples in order to try to win on appeal with some technicality. Imagine if we could cut down on the amounts of appeals and multiple appeals, what would trial lawyers say ?
What ever happened to we would rather have 10 guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail?

The problem with "forensic" science is that hollywood, like usual, is way more "advanced." What the government usually fails to tell you and does their best to keep out of court is that there are two common DNA tests...they usually use the low grade tests because it is quicker and cheaper. However, that means that there is a likely match to my DNA in my residential community alone (1:10,000 odds IRRC). The much more accurate DNA test requires better samples, more time and a lot more money. That means, as of the 2000 census, there are approx. 57 people in my 3 digit ZCTA who could have committed the crime and matched my DNA. Or, in VA alone there are 788 people who could do the same as of 2009 estimates. Problem is most people are good with math, especially probability.

Most of police forensic science was created by enterprising officers, not scientists...it's junk.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by CCFan »

gunderwood wrote:Most of police forensic science was created by enterprising officers, not scientists...it's junk.
I think it was probably created more by prosecuting attorneys and defense lawyers than "enterprising officers"...
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Re: The Death Penalty

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CCFan wrote:
gunderwood wrote:Most of police forensic science was created by enterprising officers, not scientists...it's junk.
I think it was probably created more by prosecuting attorneys and defense lawyers than "enterprising officers"...
While there were other labs run by police departments, the FBIs lab led the way. It's history can be found here: http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/hist ... echlab.htm

Certainly, Hoover and other bureaucratic officials liked the idea, but the man mentioned here was instrumental in setting up their lab, Charles Appel. http://www2.fbi.gov/page2/nov03/lab112403.htm

He graduated from law school. Certainly, they used scientific tools, but no one bothered to actually study how unique these matches actually were. In truth, today we know that nearly everything, but DNA isn't what we thought it was. Even DNA must be done correctly or the results are invalid. My comment was that generally these "advances" in "scientific" approaches to LE were not really studied, but rather special detectives/agents who were enterprising enough to try using various scientific tools. The problem is, they assumed the results were unique. I.e. if their test matched, you must be guilty. The problem is that if you actually test enough, you find out that the probability of any particular random person or thing matching is actually pretty high.

Don't take my word for it. This is from (emphasis mine): CALIFORNIA COMMISSION ON THE FAIR ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE, REPORT AND RECOMMENDATIONS REGARDING FORENSIC SCIENCE EVIDENCE, May 2007
First, unlike any other forensic discipline that preceded it, DNA profiling entered the courts only after it had been extensively validated through broad research and elaborate quality assurance programs which included rigorous proficiency testing, standards for declaring a match, and the appropriate content of a report.
This same report noted a different report:
The Innocence Project at Cardozo Law School identified forensic science testing errors in 63% of 86 DNA exoneration cases analyzed, the second most common factor contributing to wrongful convictions.
Only now that smart, well respected scientists have questioned the methods have they actually bothered to put protections in for you and I. Even then, there is still considerable concern about the validity of the results in anything, but DNA. DNA is the gold standard and even then, they get it wrong quite often.
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Re: The Death Penalty

Post by CCFan »

Perhaps I should have worded my response as "DA's and Ambulance Chasers" did more to bring about the emphasis on "scientific" advances. I'm not arguing the fact of its origins, but if prosecutors and defense lawyers alike didn't put on the dog and pony show, it wouldn't have the emphasis that it has today, and thus the "creation" of this field wouldn't have taken off like it did. It is a cat-and-mouse back-and-forth, and to your point:
Gunderwood wrote:The problem is, they assumed the results were unique. I.e. if their test matched, you must be guilty.
I'm not so sure they even assumed the results were indicative of a sure-fire answer. Their job is to convince a judge/jury, and what better way to prove their case than to provide a test with predictable outcome which proves the subjects guilt (or innocence)? A lawyer I know has said "I wouldn't put anyone on the stand unless I already knew what they were going to say before they said it". I'm not arguing that it's not rooted in the history you quoted, but if the pressure is on from above to ensure a conviction, what better way than putting an "expert" on the stand?

As an aside, if I have a 10 point "method" you are to follow when testing for an outcome but only 8 points are valid points to arrive at a verifiable, statistically accurate and repeatable outcome suitable for scientific basis, you could have testing errors in 100% of the tests, but that doesn't mean the results aren't valid... As Mark Twain popularized a common saying: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
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