Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

ShotgunBlast wrote:

Swampman wrote:Yeah, pot is legal in DC. Only if you are 29 years old, and no one can buy it in DC anyway. But you can grow up to six plants. I see a lot of rooftop gardens sprouting up. Progress? I don't see it. A society can't progress much if the people are stoned. All this does is keep the residents beholden to the government. It's a drain on society and my wallet. Legalize more drugs, go ahead morons. Make more of society a bunch of brainless wit-wot's. How $*%&ing stupid have we become?

Oh please, stop the hyperbole. We criticize liberals for only looking at gun issues from an emotional lens and not looking at the facts, but a lot of people here do the exact same thing when it comes to social issues. The doom and gloom that was predicted in Washington and Colorado hasn't come to pass. Crime is down. Tax revenue is up. The best case study is the country of Portugal where ALL drugs were decriminalized a decade ago. Drug use is actually down there. The money they spent on putting people in cages for non-violent drug offenses they now put towards educational and rehab programs, to much better results. The Netherlands has a liberal drug policy and they haven't burned into the ground either.

If we can agree that alcohol prohibition didn't work and banning guns doesn't work, what makes drug prohibition any different? Don't you want the government out of your life or do you just want the government out of only some parts of your life?

Not trying to pick a fight, but I think you missed my point. I was not arguing crime rates, etc. My point is what it does to society and the way it functions. It has been shown that drugs make people lazy, generally speaking. Hell, drugs made me lazy for a few years until I wised up. Having been there, done that, and having nothing to show for it, I am convinced of it. Yeah, it's a choice, I get that. My point is, it's a bad choice because it leads nowhere fast. The longer you partake, the faster you get nowhere. Can't plan for retirement if you lay around stoned. Trying to catch up on a life you checked out of with drugs is difficult. Those facts you talked about are all well and good, but they skirt the real problems with drugs. Maybe crime comes down a little, but the self-medicators show up like they have in CO.

DC's law is stupid and a sham. If you're going to legalize something, then just legalize it. No strings, no restrictions, no government intervention. When people figure out what the restrictions really mean they'll start getting mad. Right now they're all too stoned to realize it. Give 'em time.

SB, I do see your point and don't argue with it. Just sayin' that my point of view on this is not the same. And no, I don't want the government in my life. But they're still gonna regulate it, just like they regulate alcohol and guns.

Bottom line... During the alcohol prohibition, it didn't stop people from drinking, it created a monstrous criminal empire that even City Mayors were a part of. Crime sky rocketed, the murder rate went up, and more people consumed alcohol than before it was outlawed. Once alcohol was legalized again, almost all of the crime associated with the black market alcohol went away literally overnight.

Well, if prohibition didn't work for alcohol, then its not going to work for anything. The majority of the crime in our country exists and is driven by an outlaw drug culture. And just like alcohol, if drugs are legalized across the board, yes we will have a drug problem, but we already have a drug problem. Just that then, it will be a lot cheaper and easier to deal with than the never ending crime that come out of the drug trade and the never ending war on drugs.

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Pretty much. Besides, if self destruction is your pursuit of happiness, then you've got the right, as far as I'm concerned.

But, if I had to choose between gun rights and drug rights, I'm picking gun rights. Gun rights equates to right to live, while drug rights equates to right to die.

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I'm siding with SHMIV on this one.

The fear of marijuana is similar to the fear of guns imo. Most people that are anti-gun or legitimately (in their mind anyways) have a fear of guns, typically have zero experience with firearms. Their only information is propaganda offerings. The mass shootings, the dramatization of criminal events that involve guns etc. Rarely do those type of people hear/see/or have access to the countless untold or unpublicized stories of good guys with guns. To most that DO have that information, or experience, we know different, & have a hard time understanding how one could think the way they do. Many of us pro-gun people are very firm in our stance/s, & wave our freedom, & or liberty flags proudly.

Same could be said for marijuana. For every single argument against legalized marijuana there is a legitimate argument for it. Some people actually believe that if one smokes a joint, they instantly become some worthless piece of poop, & an immediate problem or drain on society, disregarding their profession, their families, & start thinking of how to commit crimes to support their habit from hell. This is every bit as ridiculous imo, as the fear of "assault weapons", or people wanting to "waving their handguns everywhere".

There are many people, yes even very successful people, Who use marijuana. No different than alcohol imo. I won't add to the prohibition argument, which is valid imo but, I'll say this..... Alcohol directly, & indirectly through traffic accidents, violence, etc.... kills exponentially more people than marijuana has or ever will. The average person who doesn't use mj, or isn't interested, isn't going to start because it's legal. I can go into any liquor store I want and by gallons of liquor & drink myself to death this weekend if I so desire... doesn't mean Im going to run out & do it.

There will always be people who thrive in excess, or make decisions that are excessive. They hurt those who are responsible everyday. Whether talking about guns, alcohol, or marijuana, the same could be said. The propaganda against marijuana is financially driven. Many people, & many for profit companies, make absolute fortunes because of the prohibition of marijuana, & other illegal substances. Should we ban pharmaceutical drugs because some people abuse them..??

I could go on & on but I won't, as I am aware my opinion will not be popular here. For the record, I am a non-user of marijuana.

It's cliche but it's true.

Freedom isn't just the freedom to do what you want to do, but freedom to accept what others want to do as well.

I don't see what the debate is. The People (stretching the term in DC's case) have voted to end government overreach in this one area.

Either you believe in an individual's complete sovereignty over his own person or you don't. If you look to the government to prevent others from exercising personal sovereignty, you're a Statist.

How we could choose to argue against this is beyond me.

I know, and have known, hundreds of cannabis smokers. Of those hundreds, I can only think of 2 that are successful. And those 2, they are only marginally so. The rest of them, if they have a house, it's a crappy apartment. If they have a car, it barely runs. If they have a job, it typically involves a cash register or a vat of grease. When something that they have gets broken, it stays that way.

It has been my observation that people who frequently smoke pot tend to have severe problems when it comes to critical thinking.

I spent years in the drug culture. It IS damaging, even marijuana. Recently, I heard about a study that concluded that marijuana causes brain damage; I had reached that conclusion, years ago, just from spending so much time in the presence of stoners.

But, like I said... you want to self destruct? Go for it. Ain't my business, and I can think of no Constitutional reason to stop you.

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If eaten, snorted, injected, suppositoried, or anything other than smoked, I wouldn't have any problem with it.

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H.... now you know 3, and I am far more than marginally successful.

Granted, I don't smoke now and haven't for 16+ years... but its because I have been working for the military and federal law enforcement as a contractor. They kinda frown on it. The risk outweighs the pleasure in my case.

Any chance the others you know have a "quality of character" flaw, and regardless if they were sober or stoner, their life would likely be the same?

I'm not trying to be an ass... just trying to look at it from all aspects. Can't same someone is poor and doesn't take care of themselves because of weed anymore than you could say someone killed solely because they had a gun. There is obviously underlying contributing factors.

Marc, after 16+ years, you hardly count in my assessment. But, even so, there are always exceptions.

And, I suppose that a flaw in character quality could always have something to do with it.

There are plenty of successful musicians that smoke pot; Willie Nelson comes to mind. But, I would say that ol' Willie is part of the exception,not the rule.

When you want to make changes to your life, one way that I have found to do so, is to surround yourself with people that have attributes similar to those that you want to acquire. Thus, when I decided that I needed a lifestyle change, I sought out the company of successful and productive people. Of the things that I picked up on, was a distinct lack of drug use. It's also worth noting that their alcohol consumption was fairly light, as well. This tells me that successful people value a clear head, so that they are better able to make critical decisions, and are in a better position to avoid the temptations of spur of the moment, fun for the moment, very poor decisions.

I submit that the regular smoking of weed has a mind altering effect, just like the consumption of alcohol. That is hardly comparable to the possession of a firearm.

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Oh, I agree 100%. I need to keep a clear head for my job. I need to be able to do extremely complex math and information processing in my head, on the fly and fairly quickly on occasion. If I was intoxicated, even recently, I can't do it. No one can.

I think you made the right choices with your aforementioned lifestyle changes too. I just don't think we need to blame the drug for lifestyle choices is all I was getting at.

I think you and I had incredibly similar lives, understand where you've been and been through. I think your a great guy and could see spending a lot of time hanging out with you if we lived closer. One of the thinks I like about you is, you have opinions, but don't judge people.

I say this because its important to you that you know I respect you and know that I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am just trying to put a different spin on it, even though I do agree with you.

Hope that's not to mushy for the intwebz. LoL

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Nice! But I thought it was Red Bull and vodka, not JD?

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My post has created quite the discussion. I don't really care if they legalize pot. I am just dumb founded that they'll over turn a federal law to legalize weed but be darned if i can enact a constitutional right.

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The feelings of respect are mutual, Marc. I didn't even sense any antagonism. I'm always happy to consider other view points, especially with topics on which I feel strongly. And, when it comes to drug use, I have strong opinions. As much as I was part of the culture, and as many friends that I've buried due to drug use, how could I not?

I do make a conscious effort to remove my emotions from my assessments, however. I wouldn't want to support some useless and oppressive measure, just because I was sad about a dead friend; that's how we end up with gun control laws.

I will agree that blaming a substance for irresponsible and negative behavior is wrong. Doing so was not my intent. What I was pointing out, was that the percentage of drug users, including those who smoke pot, that chronically engage in negative, irresponsible, and self destructive behaviors, seems to be quite high. Thus, it would follow that there may be a connection somewhere. Is it possible that my conclusion is wrong? Absolutely. I have put very little effort into researching it; most of my observations come from personal experience. However, I also believe that my personal experience carries some weight, by virtue of the amount of experience that I have had. My experience has crossed several state boundaries, spanned many years, has transcended socio-economic boundaries, and is all 100% real world experience. If drug use was a job, I could be upper management.

I have witnessed nothing to convince me of the merit of recreational drug use. Others, obviously, disagree. And I am OK with that. What I have determined is that it's wrong for me, and I am not too keen on being in the presence of drug use. I am loathe, though, to force this upon others. It's not my place; it's a personal decision; not mine to make for any other adult.

As to judgement, or being judgemental; there is a vast difference between judgement and discernment. The two are often confused. Most frequently, discernment is labeled as judgement. But, discernment is merely the act of observation, and applications of that observation. Biblically, we are not to pass judgement on our neighbor. That is for God, not for us. (And what a relief that is; what a terrible responsibility ) Judgement is passing condemnation. Discernment, on the other hand, is listed as a Spiritual Fruit; a gift from God. Discernment is a good thing. Discernment allows me to make practical observations and make wise decisions on those observations.

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j1mmyd wrote:I don't see what the debate is. The People (stretching the term in DC's case) have voted to end government overreach in this one area.

Either you believe in an individual's complete sovereignty over his own person or you don't. If you look to the government to prevent others from exercising personal sovereignty, you're a Statist.

How we could choose to argue against this is beyond me.

Well, just like you would expect, government overreach still exists. Like I have said, if you're going to legalize something, then go all the way. No conditions. Otherwise it really isn't legal, only partly so. Same thing with constitutional carry versus having to get a permit. All this middle of the road legalization is what is killing us. They just made more rules to account for the change in what is now allowed. DC did the same thing with guns.

A Statist? There is a need for laws to help those of us who abide by them fend off the stupid and evil people in society. Without some laws we have no recourse but to shoot the idiots. Too many innocents become targets if you lift all restrictions. Laws are a necessary evil to allow people to exercise as much sovereignty as possible. We're losing that ability pretty quickly, and some of the rules are just backdoor attempts at restriction. Take the proposed ban on M855 ammo. The ultimate effect of that is to get AR's off the street. Who's gonna buy a gun you can't get bullets for?

I realize that we have to give up some freedom to maintain most of it. Not my doing or desire that we are getting to the point that we're giving up most of it to keep a small fraction.

Oh, and for the record, I am not a Statist, and I resent be labeled as such.

Hmm... Wish I'd seen this earlier.

1. Swampman, I wasn't directing my "then you're a statist" rant at you in particular. I should have said, "One who blah, blah, blah is a Statist." Sorry I let that linger for so long.

2. All of the crimes people commit while on drugs are already crimes. Punish them for those things. Treat everyone else like adults.

@j1mmy: You're second point is one that I make often.

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