New to Virginia, Trying to obtain CCW

[ProShooter]

I believe that one day soon, all of the folks who did the online thing will have their permits revoked by the courts and they'll then have to take a live course.

Why? The law says these courses are acceptable. Some instructors who are issuing certificates for online training and signing them with their NRA instructor credentials may be in violation of NRA training policy, but they are operating within the law. Should the NRA revoke their instructor status, pretty sure this would not be a retroactive revocation and therefore not affect past training.

But are they operating within the law? The law says that the instructor must be NRA certified, but the NRA says "you are only certified to teach XYZ". So if an instructor is teaching ABC, is he really operating within the law? Its the same with DCSJ certified firearms instructors. You are certified to teach firearms to armed security, or to LE....not to offer gun safety classes to the general public. That is outside of the scope of their certification.....and that is fraud in my book.

If the NRA comes out and says that the instructor had no authority in which to issue that cert, due to it being conducted online in violation of their policy, then the cert isnt worth the paper its printed on. There has already been issues along these lines with instructors not doing live fire for Florida, and some Utah BCI certified instructors using their creds for things unintended.

I doubt it will happen anytime soon, but with the move to blended training by the NRA, I think there are things coming down the pipe.

[Chasbo00]

The law simply says; "7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or online course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;" So, unless the NRA revokes the instructor's certification there is no issue. Again, any revocation by the NRA is not likely to be retroactive. Do you know of a single case where the NRA revoked an instructor's certification retroactively? I don't.

For those wondering what the hell Jim and I are discussing, here a link to the NRA policy that prohibits NRA instructors from using their NRA credentials in conjunction with online training:

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2011/11/08/ ... pdate.aspx

While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA’s name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course.

Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials.

[ProShooter]

The law simply says; "7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or online course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;" So, unless the NRA revokes the instructor's certification there is no issue. Again, any revocation by the NRA is not likely to be retroactive. Do you know of a single case where the NRA revoked an instructor's certification retroactively? I don't.

For those wondering what the hell Jim and I are discussing, here a link to the NRA policy that prohibits NRA instructors from using their NRA credentials in conjunction with online training:

http://www.nrablog.com/post/2011/11/08/ ... pdate.aspx

Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials.

Different circumstances, but enough to get the ball rolling....

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/24246 ... t-training

The NRA's Illinois affiliate told FOX Chicago News it's discovered some trainers it certified committing apparent fraud. One, for example, even advertised, that applicants willing to pay him would only have to take three hours of gun safety training and he'd certify that they'd completed eight. The NRA's Richard Pearson wants such violators prosecuted as criminals.

[Chasbo00]

Different circumstances, but enough to get the ball rolling....

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/24246 ... t-training

The NRA's Illinois affiliate told FOX Chicago News it's discovered some trainers it certified committing apparent fraud. One, for example, even advertised, that applicants willing to pay him would only have to take three hours of gun safety training and he'd certify that they'd completed eight. The NRA's Richard Pearson wants such violators prosecuted as criminals.

Entirely different situation. What you're citing above is a clear case of fraud. I too hope the dishonest instructors are prosecuted as criminals.

The issue in Virginia is significantly different. Some NRA instructors conducted online training and used their NRA credentials on course certificates. The only thing these NRA instructors violated was an NRA training policy. And this policy is a bit dubious at that. The NRA does not prohibit NRA instructors from using their credentials in conjunction with other courses, just online courses.

The NRA policy is now three years old and most of those outfits offering online training for a CHP have found a state-certified instructor. I suspect most of the NRA instructors who were doing this did not want to risk losing their NRA instructor status and either quit or got a state certification to use instead.

I'm not aware of any prohibition regarding state-certified instructors offering online training for a CHP.

[ProShooter]

Entirely different situation. What you're citing above is a clear case of fraud. I too hope the dishonest instructors are prosecuted as criminals.

Is it entirely different?

If I am a Gynecologist, and you need open heart surgery, am I qualified to do it just because I have Dr. in front of my name?

The state says that an NRA instructor can teach the course. The NRA says you are only an NRA instructor if you doing so within your certification and are teaching ABC. If you teach XYZ, then you are not acting in the capacity of an NRA certified instructor. So, the instructors doing the online thing are committing fraud because they know damn well that their credentials don't allow them to teach online classes, despite what their title says.

[SpanishInquisition]

Meanwhile, while proshooter peddles his wares, you can go shoot for free over at Hite Hollow, which is a bit southwest of Staunton. Bit of a hill from Albemarle, but the price is right.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Chasbo00]

Is it entirely different?

If I am a Gynecologist, and you need open heart surgery, am I qualified to do it just because I have Dr. in front of my name?

The state says that an NRA instructor can teach the course. The NRA says you are only an NRA instructor if you doing so within your certification and are teaching ABC. If you teach XYZ, then you are not acting in the capacity of an NRA certified instructor. So, the instructors doing the online thing are committing fraud because they know damn well that their credentials don't allow them to teach online classes, despite what their title says.

Violating an organization's policy does not constitute fraud in and of itself. Also, look again at the NRA policy. Note that even it does not prohibit NRA instructors from using their titles with non-NRA courses. The policy singles out online courses.

While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA’s name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course.

Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials.

[ProShooter]

Is it entirely different?

If I am a Gynecologist, and you need open heart surgery, am I qualified to do it just because I have Dr. in front of my name?

The state says that an NRA instructor can teach the course. The NRA says you are only an NRA instructor if you doing so within your certification and are teaching ABC. If you teach XYZ, then you are not acting in the capacity of an NRA certified instructor. So, the instructors doing the online thing are committing fraud because they know damn well that their credentials don't allow them to teach online classes, despite what their title says.

Violating an organization's policy does not constitute fraud in and of itself. Also, look again at the NRA policy. Note that even it does not prohibit NRA instructors from using their titles with non-NRA courses. The policy singles out online courses.

While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA’s name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course.

Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials.

Right, so if they are using their creds outside of the scope of what is allowed by the NRA, they are doing so fraudulently. For the purposes of an an online course, they are acting outside of the scope of their certification.

[Chasbo00]

Is it entirely different?

If I am a Gynecologist, and you need open heart surgery, am I qualified to do it just because I have Dr. in front of my name?

The state says that an NRA instructor can teach the course. The NRA says you are only an NRA instructor if you doing so within your certification and are teaching ABC. If you teach XYZ, then you are not acting in the capacity of an NRA certified instructor. So, the instructors doing the online thing are committing fraud because they know damn well that their credentials don't allow them to teach online classes, despite what their title says.

Violating an organization's policy does not constitute fraud in and of itself. Also, look again at the NRA policy. Note that even it does not prohibit NRA instructors from using their titles with non-NRA courses. The policy singles out online courses.

While NRA allows NRA Certified Instructors to use their titles in association with courses that are not NRA courses, as long as they make a very clear disclaimer that such courses are not NRA approved, the use of a disclaimer is not sufficient to allow you to use NRA’s name or your NRA credentials in connection with an online course.

Violation of these policies may result in revocation of your NRA credentials.

Right, so if they are using their creds outside of the scope of what is allowed by the NRA, they are doing so fraudulently. For the purposes of an an online course, they are acting outside of the scope of their certification.

It's a commercial organization's policy violation. Simple as that. The penalty for which is a potential loss of NRA's instructor credentials (certification). Even loss of an NRA instructor's certification status is not a given. The policy says this may happen, not that it will.

Suggesting to readers that the courts may revoke their CHPs because they took a lawful online course taught by an NRA instructor who may have violated an NRA teaching policy is over-the-top.

[ProShooter]

I don't see that at all. I am suggesting to readers that they took a course taught by someone who wasn't certified to teach it. Then, they (unknowingly) used that certificate to apply for a carry permit. Since their training in essence didn't meet the state requirements, their CHP's should be invalidated until they take a course that meets the criteria. Its no different than if some Joe Blow off the street signed their certificate. Its not a valid cert.

[Chasbo00]

I don't see that at all. I am suggesting to readers that they took a course taught by someone who wasn't certified to teach it. Then, they (unknowingly) used that certificate to apply for a carry permit. Since their training in essence didn't meet the state requirements, their CHP's should be invalidated until they take a course that meets the criteria. Its no different than if some Joe Blow off the street signed their certificate. Its not a valid cert.

Previously in this thread you wrote:

I believe that one day soon, all of the folks who did the online thing will have their permits revoked by the courts and they'll then have to take a live course.

[ProShooter]

I don't see that at all. I am suggesting to readers that they took a course taught by someone who wasn't certified to teach it. Then, they (unknowingly) used that certificate to apply for a carry permit. Since their training in essence didn't meet the state requirements, their CHP's should be invalidated until they take a course that meets the criteria. Its no different than if some Joe Blow off the street signed their certificate. Its not a valid cert.

Previously in this thread you wrote:

I believe that one day soon, all of the folks who did the online thing will have their permits revoked by the courts and they'll then have to take a live course.

I don't see your point....

[Chasbo00]

I don't see your point....

My point is that no one who went the online training route to get a CHP is likely to have it revoked by the courts because the instructor may have violated an NRA training policy.

Apparently we disagree on this.

[ProShooter]

I don't see your point....

My point is that no one who went the online training route to get a CHP is likely to have it revoked by the courts because the instructor may have violated an NRA training policy.

Apparently we disagree on this.

We can disagree. That's ok. No harm, no foul.

[Chasbo00]

We can disagree. That's ok. No harm, no foul.

Well, I'm keeping count. Twice now we have disagreed on something in nearly five years. This issue and slide lock reloads.

[ProShooter]

We can disagree. That's ok. No harm, no foul.

Well, I'm keeping count. That makes twice in nearly five years. This issue and slide lock reloads.

Twice isn't bad! I argue with my wife more than that before breakfast.

Oh, and the slide should always be retracted and released. Slide release is a dirty word!

[Chasbo00]

Slide release is a dirty word!

It's actually two words, but who's counting...

[mbireley]

I took an online course, took the test and printed out my certificate of completion. Have not taken to the courthouse yet, as I am waiting on my change of address paperwork, but it was a super simple process up to that point.