A way for republicans to get that all elusive women vote.

[vaeevictiss]

Dormin, is the 21 for voting, soldiering, or both?


For me, I'd prefer the same age for voting, enlistment, entering contracts, etc. I'm still thinking on whether it should be 18 or 21 though.

I left for basic training when I was 17. An extra year wouldn't have changed much.

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[Remek]

I like 18 across the board. But then, I like completely dropping the drinking age. Yeah, call me crazy, but people should get passed the stage of getting drunk before they drive, and they deserve the ability to drink if they vote, because they need to be able to get ober the bad choices our government makes.

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[dorminWS]

Dormin, is the 21 for voting, soldiering, or both?


For me, I'd prefer the same age for voting, enlistment, entering contracts, etc. I'm still thinking on whether it should be 18 or 21 though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Voting. 18 is fine for soldiering. No logical reason to link the two.

[vaeevictiss]

Dormin, is the 21 for voting, soldiering, or both?


For me, I'd prefer the same age for voting, enlistment, entering contracts, etc. I'm still thinking on whether it should be 18 or 21 though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Voting. 18 is fine for soldiering. No logical reason to link the two.

I'm not sure what your problem is but how do you see 3 years making much of a difference for a soldier? Not getting your obviously hateful rhetoric against those serving.

A soldier is still paying taxes and I believe anyone paying taxes should be able to vote, and people that do not don't get to vote.

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[dorminWS]

Dormin, is the 21 for voting, soldiering, or both?


For me, I'd prefer the same age for voting, enlistment, entering contracts, etc. I'm still thinking on whether it should be 18 or 21 though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Voting. 18 is fine for soldiering. No logical reason to link the two.

I'm not sure what your problem is but how do you see 3 years making much of a difference for a soldier? Not getting your obviously hateful rhetoric against those serving.

A soldier is still paying taxes and I believe anyone paying taxes should be able to vote, and people that do not don't get to vote.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There's really no sense in you getting your bowels all in an uproar at me about this. There is nothing at all hateful towards those serving in what I have said. OF COURSE there is a big difference between most 18 year olds and most 21 year olds. I didn't say 18-20 year old SOLDIERS didn't have the maturity and knowledge to vote. I said ALL 18-20 year olds lack that (at least as a general rule). Apparently, it offends you that I think 18-20 year old soldiers shouldn't be voting (because I don't think ANY 18-20 year olds ought to be voting) and you therefore decided I'm hateful towards soldiers. You must be one of those folks who would kill the messenger who bears bad tidings. I have nothing but the highest regard for those who serve in the military; no matter what their age. But an 18-year old brain is still an 18-year old brain. That 18-year old soldier may be the noblest, best trained most motivated 18-year old kid on the planet, but he's still an 18-year old. And yes, some few of them do have the requisite maturity and wisdom; but that ain't the way to bet. It's just the way things work. So if you want to get mad about the way God made the world, it's OK with me, but you got no business getting mad at ME about it; take it to God.

The taxes argument just doesn't work. There are people who pay taxes from infancy because they have rich daddies. That doesn't mean they should get to vote at 2 years old. I'll go right along with you on the No voting for non-taxpayers; although there are some wrinkles in that; as someone once pointed out to me on this forum.

21 was the voting age as far back as our country goes until the 26th Amendment was adopted on July 1, 1971. Anglo-American law had always considered those below the age of 21 to be infants. But all the same they always served in the military even as "legal infants". So I'm really only arguing for a return the what the law was for centuries. Changing it is a big part of the reason we've got a President Obama. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

[WRW]

Taking what dorminWS says about the age of majority (those remaining being minors) and what Kreutz said about brain development continuing till age 25, I agree on 21 as a good age to begin voting. Some exceptional individuals do mature earlier, but the numbers of mature individuals are just not there to justify age 18 as the age of majority for all.

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[mamabearCali]

I can understand the argument from both sides.

I will say this. I voted at 18, straight R. I was married at 22. Had a child by age 24, was a conservative then too. I was an adult in every sense of the word. Have I matured since then, certainly. But if you had cut me off from voting at 18 that is one less vote you would have had in every election from 1998-2001.

I don't think we need to lower expectations for our young men and women. We need to raise them. Call someone a child and don't be surprised if they act like it. I am not in favor of an extended adolescence. Men and women of 15 used to get married and stay married 80 years ago. Now I am not in favor of extremely young and immature marriage, but I think we set the bar too low for maturity. Men used to lead battalions at 17, women used to be in charge of a whole household including children at 16. Now they wage on on video games and young ladies spend time doing I don't know what. Expect more, not less.

Does that necessarily mean that they need to vote at 16, o18, 21. Maybe, but then again maybe not. Either way, 18 or 21, I think the age of majority needs to coincide with an understanding of some responsibility.

[vaeevictiss]

The tax paying thing was more to the idea of people that have jobs, even unemployment, and pay taxes, not those on welfare obviously leeching off the system.

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[Kreutz]

I joined the Army at 17; were I to meet my 17 year old self I'd shake some fckin sense into him or kill him trying.

I sometimes marvel at the dumb crap my 21 year old self did too.

It was around 25 the ability to plan long-term and think things through properly clicked into place.

[SHMIV]

My father has stated, on numerous occasions, that one is not really a grown-up until they reach 25. I used to roll my eyes at that statement; now, I'm inclined to agree.

Of course, I meet plenty of folk daily, that have reached that age twice over, and they still act like they're 15.

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[Reverenddel]

How about this? If you're a soldier, and have graduated basic training, and AIT, and you're in your actual role, you have the right to vote, drink, and stand by your decisions.

Everyone else? 21 years old if you have a FULL TIME JOB FOR LONGER THAN A YEAR, and 25 years old if you're STILL IN COLLEGE!

There... Fixed.

[mamabearCali]

Sounds fair.

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[WRW]

How about this? If you're a soldier, and have graduated basic training, and AIT, and you're in your actual role, you have the right to vote, drink, and stand by your decisions.

Everyone else? 21 years old if you have a FULL TIME JOB FOR LONGER THAN A YEAR, and 25 years old if you're STILL IN COLLEGE!

There... Fixed.

How about this? If you're a soldier, and have graduated basic training, and AIT, and you're in your actual role, you have the right to vote, drink, and stand by your decisions.

Everyone else? 21 years old if you have a FULL TIME JOB FOR LONGER THAN A YEAR, and 25 years old if you're STILL IN COLLEGE!

There... Fixed.

Nah. Creates two or more classes of citizen. I understand, but nope.

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[grumpyMSG]

Let's face it we have citizens who make poor choices at 18, 21, 25, 35 and more. Aging can't fix stupid or selfish, it only slows folks down. Many folks on here have a serious libertarian side to them and others are died in the wool conservatives. I think I fall somewhere between. The difference being the libertarians want to limit what the gov't controls and the conservatives want to control things differently than the liberals. I believe in convincing people to make a choice, not legislate the choice for them.

One of the big issues that seems to bite the Republican party in the butt in virtually every election is the abortion/ birth control issue. Some of the more conservative folks want to limit or make access to abortions more difficult. I think that if they thought out their positions and message, they could win many female voters over. I believe the key is on this one is education. I go back to very wise, very conservative man, who recently passed away, C. Everett Koop. Doctor Koop didn't try to lecture folks based on his morality. He tried to educate them to use condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. He placed the health of others before his own morals. If you take that stick away from the Democrats, they won't know what to do.

[dorminWS]

How about this? If you're a soldier, and have graduated basic training, and AIT, and you're in your actual role, you have the right to vote, drink, and stand by your decisions.

Everyone else? 21 years old if you have a FULL TIME JOB FOR LONGER THAN A YEAR, and 25 years old if you're STILL IN COLLEGE!

There... Fixed.

How about this? If you're a soldier, and have graduated basic training, and AIT, and you're in your actual role, you have the right to vote, drink, and stand by your decisions.

Everyone else? 21 years old if you have a FULL TIME JOB FOR LONGER THAN A YEAR, and 25 years old if you're STILL IN COLLEGE!

There... Fixed.

Nah. Creates two or more classes of citizen. I understand, but nope.

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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I think WRW is right about this. And I'd also worry about giving a standing army greater voting rights than ordinary citizens. That would be quite an irony if you hearken back to the Founder's deep distrust of even having standing armies. And like I said before, even a very mature, well-trained, highly motivated super-patriotic and extremely honorable 18 year old is still just 18 years old, and most of the time just has not had time to accumulate the life experience, knowledge and judgment an informed and prudent voter ought to have.

[mamabearCali]

snip snip snip

One of the big issues that seems to bite the Republican party in the butt in virtually every election is the abortion/ birth control issue. Some of the more conservative folks want to limit or make access to abortions more difficult. I think that if they thought out their positions and message, they could win many female voters over. I believe the key is on this one is education. I go back to very wise, very conservative man, who recently passed away, C. Everett Koop. Doctor Koop didn't try to lecture folks based on his morality. He tried to educate them to use condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS. He placed the health of others before his own morals. If you take that stick away from the Democrats, they won't know what to do.

I suggest the Republicans stop rolling over and peeing on themselves whenever this issue is brought up. Not all women think that exterminating a child within the womb should be legal. This nation is mostly pro-life and the pro-life cause is moving forward and changing hearts and minds. If you want to win the millenials....guess what...they are pro-life in philosophy. Last year the largest civil rights march ever in the history of our nation occurred in January. 500,000 people marched in Washington most of them very young (that all coveted 18-32 block--majority of them women).

Many who support abortion have no idea what it really looks like. Get real...get nasty....the democrats do. So tell the truth. Show a picture of a 16 week old baby ultrasound. Then show what happens when that child is aborted...... legal in all 50 states.....supported by X democrat candidate. Show a pictures of various species of birds eggs...protected by law....show and ultrasound of a baby in utero at 16-20 weeks....legal to kill in all 50 states. Abortion is gruesome and disgusting.....make the democrats own their position. Tell the truth, ALL of the truth.


Then get an ad that states clearly that the republican candidate has no position on birth control but that it should be left to the individual, because birth control does not kill a child merely decreases the chances of one being created. The democrats had to lie and say that Romney and Cuchinelli were going to control birth control. Don't concede to their lying. Don't forfeit your claim to all other civil rights by abandoning those who are the tiniest and weakest among us. The right to life is the paramount right. If you don't have that you don't have the rest.

CALL THEM OUT. GROW A PAIR. BE BOLD!

[dusterdude]

Ill agree with you on them peeing on themselves mama,the gop is the biggest bunch of sissies ive ever seen

[Kreutz]

Show a pictures of various species of birds eggs...protected by law....show and ultrasound of a baby in utero at 16-20 weeks....legal to kill in all 50 states.

Stealing this.

[dorminWS]

A few months ago I saw one of those new-fangled 3D/4D ultrasounds of my dear daughter's dear daughter when it was pretty early in the pregnancy. Baby is about 2 months old now; and guess what? Not only is a fetus in utero fully formed, it (this one, at least) already looks like the same little person that will be born if nobody does anything stupid or criminal.

So, yeah, show them the ultrasound, all right, but show them a 3D/4D one. Amazing.

[Kreutz]

A few months ago I saw one of those new-fangled 3D/4D ultrasounds of my dear daughter's dear daughter when it was pretty early in the pregnancy. Baby is about 2 months old now; and guess what? Not only is a fetus in utero fully formed, it (this one, at least) already looks like the same little person that will be born if nobody does anything stupid or criminal.

So, yeah, show them the ultrasound, all right, but show them a 3D/4D one. Amazing.

You all got lucky, a friend of ours showed us hers (we never got one for our kids; too cheap)....some of them were creepy as hell. For whatever reason some of the pics omitted the face but not the skull so you got a picture of a baby missing half it's face.