TOP 10 WORST HANDGUNS OF ALL TIME

[MarcSpaz]

Yea, but they have a lifetime warranty, so its okay.

[Palladin]

Amusing. I call my Hi-Point model JHP "The Plecostomus"...

I heard about a guy who fired a Hi Point, which blew up. The shrapnel killed his whole family, the bullet ricocheted and killed his dog, and then sparks from the ricochet burned his house down, and then the shell casing landed on a voting machine and registered a vote for the political party he disagreed with. Yep, true story.

Dayum - that's a heap of bad luck there...

[OakRidgeStars]

Sounds fishy to me

[MarcSpaz]

Sounds fishy to me

I thought the fishing stories were in another thread?

[bryanrheem]

good, fun read!

[ratherfish]

BUT at 10-20 ft. with 000 Buckshot it is deadly.

So's a .22lr or even a slingshot. 000Buck is the shot size and does not correlate to the cartridges ability to actually push/group enough 000Buck fast enough to perform. Testing of .410 Judge loads shows them to be woefully inadequate to even a basic pistol for SD.

A common internet misconception. Federal premium handgun 2 1/2" 000 at 850 fps with 16" to 24" penetration could ruin anyones day and it patterns exceptionally well. That being said I use mine in the fishing in the brackish swamp in Florida loaded 1X#4, 2X000, and 2x45LC.

It is butt ugly though.

[gunderwood]

BUT at 10-20 ft. with 000 Buckshot it is deadly.

So's a .22lr or even a slingshot. 000Buck is the shot size and does not correlate to the cartridges ability to actually push/group enough 000Buck fast enough to perform. Testing of .410 Judge loads shows them to be woefully inadequate to even a basic pistol for SD.

A common internet misconception. Federal premium handgun 2 1/2" 000 at 850 fps with 16" to 24" penetration could ruin anyones day and it patterns exceptionally well. That being said I use mine in the fishing in the brackish swamp in Florida loaded 1X#4, 2X000, and 2x45LC.

It is butt ugly though.

Not according to the FBI standards and respected gel testers such as brassfetcher. The only way to achieve that kind of penetration (which is too much any ways, 12" - 18" is ideal per the FBI spec) is to have no expansion, at which point your odds of hitting vitals is significantly lower than with a good HP. If you design for expansion, penetration is typically several inches short of the minimum.

"Ruin your day" isn't a valid terminal ballistics specification. I'm pretty sure there are lots of people on this forum that have sufficient skill to "ruin somebody's day" with a mere .22lr. That doesn't make .22lr adequate for SD. That said, a .410 handgun isn't a terrible option, but it does fall short per the generally accepted and measurable FBI specification. .45LC with a good HP bullet is a much better option. They do make excellent snake guns though.

[Reverenddel]

You know how I solve those arguments of "ballistics"?

"Go down range, and let me shoot you if you think it sucks so bad."

I haven't gotten a taker yet.

[Chasbo00]

As usual, gunderwood get it right. Besides, a Taurus Judge without a red dot sight and a laser is even questionable for snakes.

[gunderwood]

You know how I solve those arguments of "ballistics"?

"Go down range, and let me shoot you if you think it sucks so bad."

I haven't gotten a taker yet.

I hope you're joking because that's horrible logic. I have a pellet gun that I use for squirrels and I wouldn't let you shoot me with it either. However, it's definitely not a SD/HD gun, nor it a good LE choice or something worth deploying to a war zone with. Terminal ballistics is about coming up with repeatable tests which are measurable and defining, as well as you can, the parameters that are effective at stopping a threat. The FBI has spent millions getting there. Are they right? Probably not, but they're closer than anyone else it seems.

[MarcSpaz]

I have my .40 on my hip almost all day long, but when I am asleep, the pistol gets locked up. I have an MP5 that fires 22LR at the ready for SD at home. It has a 22 round mag loaded with 38 grain JHP's that have an est 1250 FPS MV. Even at 140 ft lbs, if I shoot someone with it, it would still be affective at distances I would see in my home.

Here is my mind set...

1.) The round is less likely to go through the target/hostile.
2.) It wont blowout my ear drums in the middle of the night.
3.) It is lighter and easier to handle than an M4.
4.) Helps me be more accurate than if I was using a pistol because there is a stock, read dot, and fore-grip
5.) What my round lacks in stature, I can makeup for with pure volume.
6.) In my dark house, compared to a stranger or even someone who has been in my home, I will have a huge tactical advantage.

Would I carry it on the streets? Heck no, and for many reasons.

I kind of look at the Judge the same way. It has it's uses. It may not be ideal for everything, but something is better than nothing. If I am in a gun fight and its a choice between using the Judge or throwing rocks and running like hell, I'd pick the Judge. But like my MP5, it's not my first choice for every situation.

[jdonovan]

Marc you need to add a rabbits foot to your HD gear. You've got enough hopes in there that I've got to say, you need all the luck you can get.

[MarcSpaz]

LOL Thanks!

According to DOJ, more people have been killed with .25 handguns than any other weapon. The 22 LR is just a shade smaller, but makes 60 ft lbs more energy than the .25. I would think it would suffice.

[Palladin]

Then they must be banned, ASAP.

[jdonovan]

LOL Thanks!

According to DOJ, more people have been killed with .25 handguns than any other weapon.

There is a huge difference between lethal now, and lethal 10 minutes from now when you are in a defensive shooting situation.

And the most common 25's are made by Lorcin, and Raven so why not use them if they have such a great track record?

[gunderwood]

LOL Thanks!

According to DOJ, more people have been killed with .25 handguns than any other weapon.

There is a huge difference between lethal now, and lethal 10 minutes from now when you are in a defensive shooting situation.

And the most common 25's are made by Lorcin, and Raven so why not use them if they have such a great track record?

+1

The point is to stop the threat ASAP, not kill the threat 10mins later (real world stats rarely capture this and that's the problem with "stop data." A guy that dies 3hrs later after killing/raping your family gets a checkbox just like the guy that died in tens of seconds and did you no further harm). I was watching a medical conference presentation where they stated that approximately 6 in 7 people shot with a handgun survive (don't know if this is true, I don't have the data to verify the claim). The claim was that with quick medical attention, handguns are not that lethal compared to rifles (duh). What they didn't discuss, since they are doctors and not SD specialists, is how many of those people (good and bad) were unable to continue after being hit (again, good or bad actions). Remember that our goal is to stop the threat, not kill. Even a minor wound could kill the threat due to infection, but it's not likely to stop an attacker within the time frame required to save your life.

The point isn't that the FBI terminal ballistic specification isn't about maximum lethality, it's a balance. It's also limited by the lack of energy that SD handguns typically have (~300 - 500 ftlbs). Energy doesn't kill per se, but it does limit what you can and can't do. The reason for the minimum of 12" is that anything less than that in gel is not likely to penetrate to the vital organs. The human body isn't homogeneous like ballistics gel is, so inch to inch isn't comparable. E.g. skin is very elastic and typically is worth 2-5" of gel penetration, clothing adds another variable as does the rib cage. You can easily eat up 6-10" of that gel penetration just getting to the vitals (clothing + skin + rib cage). On the other end, during a LE/SD shootings you want to minimize the danger to innocents. A bullet that over penetrates can cause substantial harm (as well was wastes energy by continuing onward...the ideal is everything in the threat). Thus, the recommended maximum of 18". The 12" and 18" are not hard and fast rules, so something with 11.5" isn't automatically worthless and 18.5" isn't automatically dangerous. Those numbers are basically what is statistically likely to get to vitals on a threat without causing undue risk to anyone else. The penetration specs are also the absolute minimum or first assessment of the cartridges performance. After penetration you start looking at expansion (not just maximum as that can be very misleading), initial expansion depth, wound cavity and location, etc.

Terminal ballistics experts have been studying the science for decades and have spent millions if not tens/hundred of millions figuring out what works and doesn't work. It's your life, so carry/use what you want, but I'm listening to all the guys that do this for a living. Thankfully, the lawyers got something right and practically every police department in the country requires ammo that passes the FBI spec and they're commonly available for civilian use. Just keep up with technology as the designs evolve and you'll do fine. Use odd stuff like .410 and .22lr and your on your own playing guessing games; the gel isn't promising and there is precious little real world data.

[MarcSpaz]

There is a huge difference between lethal now, and lethal 10 minutes from now when you are in a defensive shooting situation.

That is a very good point. Time to drop is always a concern. I found an interesting training review from the FBI that was created in 1987. It compares 9mm to ,45 ACP. Pretty good read. Linked below

And the most common 25's are made by Lorcin, and Raven so why not use them if they have such a great track record?

Because I'm stupid, not crazy!


http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

FirearmsTactical.com
Reproduced with Permission of the Author

TACTICAL REALITIES
Shot placement is an important, and often cited, consideration regarding the suitability of weapons and ammunition. However, considerations of caliber are equally important and cannot be ignored. For example, a bullet through the central nervous system with any caliber of ammunition is likely to be immediately incapacitating. Even a .22 rimfire penetrating the brain will cause immediate incapacitation in most cases. Obviously, this does not mean the law enforcement agency should issue .22 rimfires and train for head shots as the primary target. The realities of shooting incidents prohibit such a solution.

Few, if any, shooting incidents will present the officer with an opportunity to take a careful, precisely aimed shot at the subject’s head. Rather, shootings are characterized by their sudden, unexpected occurrence; by rapid and unpredictable movement of both officer and adversary; by limited and partial target opportunities; by poor light and unforeseen obstacles; and by the life or death stress of sudden, close, personal violence. Training is quite properly oriented towards "center of mass" shooting. That is to say, the officer is trained to shoot at the center of whatever is presented for a target. Proper shot placement is a hit in the center of that part of the adversary which is presented, regardless of anatomy or angle.

A review of law enforcement shootings clearly suggests that regardless of the number of rounds fired in a shooting, most of the time only one or two solid torso hits on the adversary can be expected. This expectation is realistic because of the nature of shooting incidents and the extreme difficulty of shooting a handgun with precision under such dire conditions. The probability of multiple hits with a handgun is not high. Experienced officers implicitly recognize that fact, and when potential violence is reasonably anticipated, their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible. Since most shootings are not anticipated, the officer involved cannot be prepared in advance with heavier armament. As a corollary tactical principle, no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.

The handgun is the primary weapon for defense against unexpected attack. Nevertheless, a majority of shootings occur in manners and circumstances in which the officer either does not have any other weapon available, or cannot get to it. The handgun must be relied upon, and must prevail. Given the idea that one or two torso hits can be reasonably expected in a handgun shooting incident, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation.

[MarcSpaz]

... I was watching a medical conference presentation where they stated that approximately 6 in 7 people shot with a handgun survive (don't know if this is true, I don't have the data to verify the claim).

I know the CDC tracks stuff like that. I read a CDC report a few months ago that said in 2011 about 100,000 US citizens were shot and about 36,000 were fatal. That included crime, suicide, self-defense, etc. The DOJ had a similar report, but broken out by type of arms. When the GOV websites start to come back online, if its anytime soon, I'll see if I can find them again.

[gunderwood]

... I was watching a medical conference presentation where they stated that approximately 6 in 7 people shot with a handgun survive (don't know if this is true, I don't have the data to verify the claim).

I know the CDC tracks stuff like that. I read a CDC report a few months ago that said in 2011 about 100,000 US citizens were shot and about 36,000 were fatal. That included crime, suicide, self-defense, etc. The DOJ had a similar report, but broken out by type of arms. When the GOV websites start to come back online, if its anytime soon, I'll see if I can find them again.

This gets to the problem with "real" data, how do you normalize it? I think most of us would agree that removing suicides is a good thing when trying to crunch SD data, the situation just doesn't match SD. Also, 100k was shootings, not limited to shootings with handguns. Etc. The conference claimed that rifle survival rates were almost exactly the opposite, implying that 6 of 7 people shot with a rifle die.

What that CDC data does say is that 2 in 3 people shot with a firearm live, 1 in 3 die. Considering that the firearm is the reigning king of lethal, small arms, that's fairly good odds.

[MarcSpaz]

Very true. I would assume we all can agree that any high power rifle is the most effective with regard time to drop and a low caliber sub compact pistol is going to the the lightest and most nimble.

Whatever we choose to use for defense, if it is a single solution designed to fit all situations... then there will be a compromise across the board. Although there is much debate on what the best solution is, we all seem to have our preferences. It's ultimately up to us as individuals to decide what those compromises will be and hope we make the right choice.

Honesty... for my preference... the 22LR MP5 is great as far as physical make-up goes, but it is really only good for poking holes in paper at 100 yards and in. I would love to get a 9mm MP5k, but can't stand the idea of hunting down a relic and dealing with ATF or getting a class 3 license and opening a business.