Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Kennys,
I dont' know what to tell you, you just had a really bad experience there.
I don't know if the gun rule will ever change anywhere but I guess all we can do is work with what we have. I know that I myself will endeavor to treat people with more respect and I hope others will do the same in dealing with me. Doubt it, because it seems like just because I work private security most act like I don't deserve respect. Oh well, thankfully my whole self worth is based upon a few idiots ignorant remarks. NOT to say that you are but if you were to see all the riff raff I have to deal with on a daily basis you would understand.

Bottom line--the security guards know the door is not properly posted. So when the see someone armed they must make a decision if that person is an immediate threat or if they are just someone who did not see the tiny sign by the one door. If they perceived this man as a real threat, they should have called the cops and merely observed, as they engaged an ARMED man with I am guessing nothing but an attitude and a radio. HOLY COW that is asking for trouble. If they did not perceive him as a threat then they had two options go on about their day and look the other way (as I am sure they have done in numerous other situations) or politely inform him that it was against the mall's rules for him to carry his weapon in the mall. There was no call for shouting, or being belligerent. If they had tried to disarm him--OMG could that have ended badly. They are not LEO's with the authority (and training) to do such a thing. That is a really good way for someone to get killed.

OK, well this may be a 2 year old post but where I work similar to VCC mall, this is an ongoing issue. The whole idea about surrounding the Gun owner is not to disarm or detain..trust me we are taught better than that. I can't really explain without going into the company handbook and all that legal stuff. Understand though in my opinion since i was not there I imagine that with similar training those officers would never attempt to disarm anyone.
Also I joined because I am planning on buying a handgun next year and was looking for enthusiasts whose minds I might pick concerning handguns.
I dont know much about them so I wanted to hear from gun onwers not gun dealers who may just want to tell me anything for me to buy from them.
I'm not completely aware of the issues with thugs or punks there at VCC but where I work it is a constant struggle with teens and general low lifes up to no good.
I just hate the disrespect that comes with being a security officer as well. I mean from teens yeah they sure I know they are dificult but adults?
Why does it come from them, maybe I dont want to be a police officer, has anyone ever considered that? doubtful, people see me and instantly think oh mall cop or police academy drop out.

mamabearCali wrote:Bottom line--the security guards know the door is not properly posted. So when the see someone armed they must make a decision if that person is an immediate threat or if they are just someone who did not see the tiny sign by the one door. If they perceived this man as a real threat, they should have called the cops and merely observed, as they engaged an ARMED man with I am guessing nothing but an attitude and a radio. HOLY COW that is asking for trouble. If they did not perceive him as a threat then they had two options go on about their day and look the other way (as I am sure they have done in numerous other situations) or politely inform him that it was against the mall's rules for him to carry his weapon in the mall. There was no call for shouting, or being belligerent. If they had tried to disarm him--OMG could that have ended badly. They are not LEO's with the authority (and training) to do such a thing. That is a really good way for someone to get killed.

We know that we are not Law Enforcement...asking politely or simply a polite reminder goes a long way especially with someone who is law abiding. I agree there was no call for shouting or belligerency.
Like I said to Kennys, I guess he genuinely just had a bad experience.
In the future though I know I will work on my tact and maybe smile more when I see an OC'er, it may just be you.

Well I don't open carry, and I conceal my weapon very deeply, so if you see me you will never know whether I am carrying or not--scares the other soccer mom's too much anyway . If you are here to find discussion on guns/gun topics then . Those on this forum are aware of the problem with thugs and lowlifes in this world--that is why we carry a weapon. .

CBEEZO wrote:I agree that a few bad eggs have ruined the perception for security officers. I agree with your first two facts and as far as the third I hate to say it but you are right. In a lethal situation security officers are directed to help who they can and not put themselves in harms way unecessarily. I get that you would want to protect yourself and family in a situation like that however, complaining about it to officers or even calling them names does no good. OK so you people made to leave feel better walking out saying something like"oh you are just paul blart, or go joy ride on your little scooter." What does this accomplish when security is just enforcing the rules imposed by the owners?
I guess it makes them feel bigger and better?
The people you should be talking to are the property owners. Whether it's right or wrong it is just how the rules are. Those officers are doing what the owner wants them to do and if it means losing your business then they will suffer not gun owners.

I sent a letter to the property owners, and as far as being beligerant back to security, I just noted to them that I did not see a sign and if that was the case I would leave. When they told me where it was I looked at it and than just left. At no point did I get beligerant and argue, they are the ones that had an attitude.

On another note as someone earlier posted, this is Va, where OC is allowed, one of the tools a security officer needs to know are the laws to be affective at his jobs. If they knew the laws as well as how the sign for that establishment was posted mabe this wouldnt have been blown to the proportion that it was.

Just to set myself straight, I have know very prefessional security guards that either were retired LEO, or like you said did not want to be a cop so they went down the security road. On many instances I have heard stories from them on all the Barny bad ass wana be's. In one case a former LEO security officers supervisor was an un trained twitt. Dont know if you have ever been in this mall, or even how much you have if ever, but I know back than seeing was beliving in what I am saying as there is so much that went on there that could not be put in words.

CBEEZO wrote: The whole idea about surrounding the Gun owner is not to disarm or detain..trust me we are taught better than that. I can't really explain without going into the company handbook and all that legal stuff. Understand though in my opinion since i was not there I imagine that with similar training those officers would never attempt to disarm anyone.

Also I joined because I am planning on buying a handgun next year and was looking for enthusiasts whose minds I might pick concerning handguns.
I dont know much about them so I wanted to hear from gun onwers not gun dealers who may just want to tell me anything for me to buy from them.

I'm not completely aware of the issues with thugs or punks there at VCC but where I work it is a constant struggle with teens and general low lifes up to no good.

I just hate the disrespect that comes with being a security officer as well. I mean from teens yeah they sure I know they are dificult but adults? Why does it come from them, maybe I dont want to be a police officer, has anyone ever considered that? doubtful, people see me and instantly think oh mall cop or police academy drop out.

- well... maybe that handbook needs to be revised, radically. as a law-abiding, gun-owning, most-of-the-time cc'er, some-of-the-time oc'er, i'm hyperaware of my surroundings and especially of the proximity of people around me. my sidearm *will not* be taken from me illegally with any ease. i actually seek out training on effective weapon retention techniques. how much physical interaction training do SOs get, whether voluntary or mandatory? to be clear, i'm talking about firearm retention, not escalating.

- welcome, then. this is a good place for amicable discourse on firearms in the commonwealth and beyond. a retrospective, friendly piece of advice, though. you would have been well-served introducing yourself in the new member forum, rather than by coming in with a post, guaranteed to stir the pot, to an old thread. i, for one, would have welcomed you. and your perspective as a reasonable and considerate SO, could/would be an asset to forum discussions.

- i'm sure that dealing with the dregs is a constant challenge. in the end, that's the root of the issue, though. when mamabearCali posts that she was assaulted and all the SOs did was laugh at her expense, then something is extremely broken.

- re: disrespect, all i can say is that respect given usually results in respect reciprocated. if we were to interact in your official capacity, you could count on my respect as long as i was afforded the same. if you were to cop an an attitude, i'd still try to deescalate and remove myself from the situation. in that case, though, i'm only human. the impression i'd carry away privately wouldn't be favorable to you, personally, or your colleagues, in general.

CBEEZO wrote: ... Security Officers respond in numbers because they don't know you.

And I carry a gun because I don't know Security Officers. Can I trust you to protect my wife from the dude that just got out of jail, hiding in the dressing room? I'd rather not. What you're saying here implies that you (Security Officers) can't defuse a situation unless you feel like you can physically overpower someone by volume. I wonder why you guys get such bad raps with that attitude...

CBEEZO wrote: Those rules exist as umbrella rules to include everybody. NO one except law enforcment officers and money carriers are allowed to carry weapons into a mall.

If you honestly believe that those rules exist to project the patrons, you'd quit your job, seeing how well that worked in Luby's Diner, Va Tech, Ft. Hood, Norway, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc....

CBEEZO wrote: I would think that as proud gun owners and maybe CWL holders you all would know the rules as to when and where you can carry.

I would think that as a proud American, you'd know all the rules of every single federal law, state law, municipality law, town law, city law, county law. So, don't walk down the sidewalk on Sunday eating an ice cream cone in our town, otherwise we'll throw your ass in the clink. Fair? According to you, yes.

CBEEZO wrote: Private property owners dictate who can carry on private property.
This suprecedes your second amendment right. I look forward to more discussion with you.

Nope, it doesn't supersede my rights - no one forces me to shop there, and so there are lots of $$$ that I spend elsewhere, quite content to be armed instead of bowing down to some "rule" that a property owner decides.

Lessons learned:

1. Avoid this mall if you are especially if you are OC'ing
2. If you are carrying concealed, make sure your piece is concealed, or
3. Avoid this mall at all cost (no pun); take your business elsewhere and that goes for the rest of us.

Security guards do not have, nor are they given any discretion at all. All they know is they have to enforce the mall management policy or they could be disciplined, maybe fired. They are not there to make decisions, those are left to management. As for satisfying their egos or to just show they have authority over us... that's something else (they were probably bullied big time in high school). I 'm glad you held your own and decided to leave. While you were irritated, upset, and mad at they way those rent-a-cops treated you, you are well, able to share your experience with us, and still enjoy your family. I hope you were able to buy a nice outfit for your daughter elsewhere.

CCFan wrote:And I carry a gun because I don't know Security Officers. Can I trust you to protect my wife from the dude that just got out of jail, hiding in the dressing room? I'd rather not. What you're saying here implies that you (Security Officers) can't defuse a situation unless you feel like you can physically overpower someone by volume. I wonder why you guys get such bad raps with that attitude...

If you honestly believe that those rules exist to project the patrons, you'd quit your job, seeing how well that worked in Luby's Diner, Va Tech, Ft. Hood, Norway, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc....

I would think that as a proud American, you'd know all the rules of every single federal law, state law, municipality law, town law, city law, county law. So, don't walk down the sidewalk on Sunday eating an ice cream cone in our town, otherwise we'll throw your ass in the clink. Fair? According to you, yes.

Nope, it doesn't supersede my rights - no one forces me to shop there, and so there are lots of $$$ that I spend elsewhere, quite content to be armed instead of bowing down to some "rule" that a property owner decides.

First let me say that yes if incidents occur that require me to act in a way that puts myself in danger but allows for your family to escape that danger we do it though we are told not in so many words but not to over extend ourselves to leave us vulnerable. No we dont hang out in dressing rooms watching people, so in that case no one would be there for your girls or wife. Sorry. Yes several Officers respond because even Police officers call for backup in situations that may get out of hand. We do it from the get go becasue we and I say we because training tells us to act in such a way that does not escalate the situation. I know some officers may be on an ego trip or something but not all of us.
As for the whole sunday ice cream analogy..ridiculous, the sidewalk is not private property that has rules set forth to tell anyone how to use it or what to do while walking on it.
The whole second amendment thing, It doesn't take it away it states while you may carry, private propery owners are allowed to tell you cannot carry on their property and you can't fight it. Yes you can...like you said you can leave.

Gecko45, please do not continue use of your covert handle here. Territory is unfriendly. Disengage immediately. Repeat, disengage immediately.

Mindflayer wrote:Gecko45, please do not continue use of your covert handle here. Territory is unfriendly. Disengage immediately. Repeat, disengage immediately.

http://www.myspace.com/tacticalsecurityenforcer

Mindflayer wrote:Gecko45, please do not continue use of your covert handle here. Territory is unfriendly. Disengage immediately. Repeat, disengage immediately.

By this I take it that you think I am someone else. I went to the myspace page of that gecko. The next posted comment had it listed.
That is funny as hell!
However I am not "gecko45"...he seems to take security way to far.
I don't know how to prove it. Anyway it made me laugh,

I think that all here that have procured thier CHP does so because they are law abiding and want to do things in a proper manor. Any business that does not want firearms on thier property certainly have that right, but a "no firearms/weapons" sign should be at all points of entry and in plain sight and readable. If this is a situation where there are security guards on the premises, they should be trained to properly handle a situation of this nature without it becoming something its not. We would like to believe that we live in a world that does not "stereotype", but we all know this is not true and we all do it to a certain extent. Present company excluded, there are quite a few people who become security guards for the "authority" feeling, some are retired/disabled LEO who want to still contribute to society,some just because its a job and some who have the IQ of a rock and should not hold the position. I have been in VA Commons several times with my firearm concealed and have never been stopped. If I was ever approached and asked to leave my firearm in the car....I would do so, with that said I would take my business elsewhere. If I was approached in the manner that was stated here in this thread, I would document all the names of the guards in question and right a letter to the mall management company and also to the security company in question. They would be informed of my view of the situation and my choice to take my business elsewhere, not for the reason that I cannot carry my legal firearm, but the fact that I was treated in a disrepectful manner that is not conducive to me ever being a patron of that mall. In conjunction I would let them know that I will be alerting all my friends and family that carry concealed not to patronize this mall and that copies of my letter of concern would be sent to the corporate offices of every store in the mall. It might not do much but everyone these days are concerned with economics, along with our rights to cc and protect ourselves and our families we also have the right to spend our money where we are respected.

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Since I almost always carry IWB Appendix, it would have probably been moot. The fascists that be in Sacramento have decreed that OC will be outlawed as of 1/1/12. Of course they have to be empty anyway and most sheriffs won't issue CWPs. So, like many jurisdictions, if you carry...you're an outlaw.

I do make it a point, when the option exists, to sit in a dining room even though a seat in the bar would be quicker.


lj