Why is DHS and other Federal Agencies Buying so much ammo?

[VACoastie]

Sure does Palladin! Unfortunately we don't get that fat budget the other branches get. We're a joke compared to the amount of money they get and R&D projects.

I wish I could get to the range more, but alas. We gots no money lol

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[gunderwood]

This is what gets me...

There are a lot of contracts being discussed. DHS's is suppose to be approx. 750M rounds of a 1.6B round order over 5 years. ICE gets the rest. The government spokes people claim that DHS uses 15M rounds of ammo per year for training (~90 agencies and 70k agents, no kidding I can believe 15M/yr). That would be 75M rounds over 5 years. Yes my friends, they are buying a DECADE of ammo every year for the next 5 years. Literally, 50 years of ammo purchases! Furthermore, a large portion of those rounds are HPs which are a waste of money for training purposes. Yes, I understand buying in bulk to save money, but 50 years worth is prepping to the extreme.

I can't think of a valid reason for DHS to be purchasing 50 years of ammo supply in the next 5 years, and such huge quantities of HPs, if they weren't stockpiling. DHS isn't stockpiling because the Canadians are going to invade either.

[Purdune]

That would be 75M rounds over 5 years. Yes my friends, they are buying a DECADE of ammo every year for the next 5 years. Literally, 50 years of ammo purchases!

Well in 10 or 20 years we will be reaping the rewards of surplus ammo. Course I'm not happy we are buying this stuff now with Chinese money...

[WRW]

Sometimes the dots come together without me even having to connect them. With the numbers of manufacturers threatening ban of sales to states that are proposing anti-2A laws it seems reasonable to me that Feds are preparing for a backlash from a restriction on ammo...especially hollow points.

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[MNMGoneShooting]

Oh no doubt! Honestly, and I've really thought this, I don't know why the gov't doesn't reload their rounds. It doesn't affect performance of the round and it could improve it to their own specs. But yes, they're fudging the ammo supply for everyone. Ha! 'Nother no big surprise from them.

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Does anyone remember a particular October thread where the Reverend shared some info?

Just a heads up...

I have "NG" friends who are being "activated" in January for "Possible civil unrest".

I have LEO friends who are being told of "Vacation blackouts" in January because of "possible problems".

I ain't just "feeling hinky", I'm SEEING HINKY! Get yer game together folks, if the people in CHARGE are feeling it, then I'm feeling it as well.

Possible dot connection? But how on Earth would anyone have predicted Newtown? Perhaps it was just a convenience?

"Mr. President... Understanding this was a horrible act, but this is perfect for the agenda we talked about during your campaign. Now, I want you to start crying when you are in front of the cameras.... We'll do Bloomberg's plan initially, then start up Feinstein's paperwork.... "

[gunderwood]

Oh no doubt! Honestly, and I've really thought this, I don't know why the gov't doesn't reload their rounds. It doesn't affect performance of the round and it could improve it to their own specs. But yes, they're fudging the ammo supply for everyone. Ha! 'Nother no big surprise from them.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Does anyone remember a particular October thread where the Reverend shared some info?

Just a heads up...

I have "NG" friends who are being "activated" in January for "Possible civil unrest".

I have LEO friends who are being told of "Vacation blackouts" in January because of "possible problems".

I ain't just "feeling hinky", I'm SEEING HINKY! Get yer game together folks, if the people in CHARGE are feeling it, then I'm feeling it as well.

Possible dot connection? But how on Earth would anyone have predicted Newtown? Perhaps it was just a convenience?

"Mr. President... Understanding this was a horrible act, but this is perfect for the agenda we talked about during your campaign. Now, I want you to start crying when you are in front of the cameras.... We'll do Bloomberg's plan initially, then start up Feinstein's paperwork.... "

The President was inaugurated in January. That's most likely why. There were plenty of people talking about riots like LA if Obama lost.

[Purdune]

The President was inaugurated in January. That's most likely why. There were plenty of people talking about riots like LA if Obama lost.

Yep.

[MarcSpaz]

DHS Has been buying large amounts of ammo almost since its beginning. Keep in mind that DHS is a federal police agency that has many sub-agencies that all train through the DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) as well as supply ammo for most of those sub-agencies. That includes ICE, CBP, FPS, EPS, Secret Service, TSA, and many more.

Think about the thousands of armed officials. Some train once a week, some train 3 times a week. Each training session a single shooter will use between 1 and 2 thousand rounds a day. A single shooter could potentially fire over 300,000 rounds a year (depending on the branch and duties) and never fire a single shot in the line of duty. Even on the low end, a shooter will use 50,000 rounds a year training.

To bring a little prospective, I'm a civilian who went through 2 weeks of close quarter combat and ambush defense training and I used almost 3000 rounds. Most of it was 40 cal. Some was 5.56. When you are training on weapon transitions, magazine transitions, hitting a moving target while you are moving and needing a 5" group at 10 yards to get a satisfactory score... yea, you'll use a lot of ammo. LOL

[dorminWS]

DHS Has been buying large amounts of ammo almost since its beginning. Keep in mind that DHS is a federal police agency that has many sub-agencies that all train through the DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) as well as supply ammo for most of those sub-agencies. That includes ICE, CBP, FPS, EPS, Secret Service, TSA, and many more.

Think about the thousands of armed officials. Some train once a week, some train 3 times a week. Each training session a single shooter will use between 1 and 2 thousand rounds a day. A single shooter could potentially fire over 300,000 rounds a year (depending on the branch and duties) and never fire a single shot in the line of duty. Even on the low end, a shooter will use 50,000 rounds a year training.

To bring a little prospective, I'm a civilian who went through 2 weeks of close quarter combat and ambush defense training and I used almost 3000 rounds. Most of it was 40 cal. Some was 5.56. When you are training on weapon transitions, magazine transitions, hitting a moving target while you are moving and needing a 5" group at 10 yards to get a satisfactory score... yea, you'll use a lot of ammo. LOL

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Brings up two questions in my mind:
(1) How hard does the average federal cop (as in, for instance, FBI agants) train? I'm betting it doesn't involve anything like 1,500 rounds per week; and I'd also bet that whatever it is, it's a lot less often than evry week, or even every month.
(2) Why are DHS people training that rigorously?

Any way you slice this, DHS is either really ramping up their police force or really wasting big bucks.

[VACoastie]

I wouldn't say DHS practicing time on range is really a waste of big bucks, they do protect you and your liberties and go after bad guys after all. As far as going to the range, it's not as much as we probably SHOULD, this is just my opinion though. Normal LEO types go minimally every 6 months to re-qual and we might slide in with other qualifying sessions when someine has to back out so we dont waste time/money and we can stay proficient.

Now that we've got the normal LEO situation out the way, the specialized teams shoot a HELLA lot. You've got the Hostage rescue teams, MSRT's, raid teams, etc. etc. They probably go every month minimally. FLETC has sessions every week and I know for sure they throw a ton of lead around. I coulen't begin to estimate the amount of rounds they put down range, but it's a lot.

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[gunderwood]

DHS Has been buying large amounts of ammo almost since its beginning. Keep in mind that DHS is a federal police agency that has many sub-agencies that all train through the DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) as well as supply ammo for most of those sub-agencies. That includes ICE, CBP, FPS, EPS, Secret Service, TSA, and many more.

Yes, they acknowledge this and it's about 70k agents.

Think about the thousands of armed officials. Some train once a week, some train 3 times a week. Each training session a single shooter will use between 1 and 2 thousand rounds a day. A single shooter could potentially fire over 300,000 rounds a year (depending on the branch and duties) and never fire a single shot in the line of duty. Even on the low end, a shooter will use 50,000 rounds a year training.

They practice no where near that much! They admit to using 15M rounds a year, which is a lot. Excluding ICE, they are buying 10x times what they admit to using per year, every year for 5 years. It's not the large number that's interesting, it's the fact that they are buying large quantities relative to what they actually use. AKA, stockpiling.

I expect Gov agencies to make large purchases, but I expect it to somewhat resemble their actual use rate. Not enough ammo to last them 50 years!

To bring a little prospective, I'm a civilian who went through 2 weeks of close quarter combat and ambush defense training and I used almost 3000 rounds. Most of it was 40 cal. Some was 5.56. When you are training on weapon transitions, magazine transitions, hitting a moving target while you are moving and needing a 5" group at 10 yards to get a satisfactory score... yea, you'll use a lot of ammo. LOL

Yes, most of the ammo seems to be consumed in training classes. Mine was about 2.5k rounds/week, which was high by most Gov training standards. However, regular training isn't anywhere near what you've suggested.

DHS (excluding ICE) claims to use 15M rounds a year. Buying a few extra years of ammo isn't bad, but buying 150M a year for 5 years is not normal.

[gunderwood]

I coulen't begin to estimate the amount of rounds they put down range, but it's a lot.

You don't have to guess, DHS said 15M total per year.

[gunderwood]

The government's explanation is much less sinister.
Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga . The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.

Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities. The rounds are used for basic and advanced law enforcement training for federal law enforcement agencies under the department's umbrella. The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year.

The rest of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition would be purchased by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the federal government's second largest criminal investigative agency.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/02 ... z2LBplkCRH

So no more speculating that they shoot more than they actually do for training. DHS own words claim 15M/year for training. There isn't a hot shooting war so they can't be going through much more than that in the line of duty. Even if it's a few million, their still buying 150M a year or around 130M more than they need PERIOD.

ICE isn't included in that figure. ICE is buying the other 850M rounds. Presumably ICE's training is similar, which would lead you to believe that they are also purchasing on the order of 10x more ammo each and other year for the next five years.

Simply put, by their own admission, they are buying ~50 years of ammo. That includes the high volume special teams, etc. So quite making excuses for them and answer why they are buying 50 years of ammo over 5 years by their own admission.

[gunderwood]

Brings up two questions in my mind:
(1) How hard does the average federal cop (as in, for instance, FBI agants) train? I'm betting it doesn't involve anything like 1,500 rounds per week; and I'd also bet that whatever it is, it's a lot less often than evry week, or even every month.
(2) Why are DHS people training that rigorously?

Other than the specialize teams, shooting standards are woefully inadequate and way less than most people assume. I was trained/certified in about a week and with 2.5k rounds of ammo. However, the standard is so low that I was able to easily shoot a perfect score (repeatedly) even without the training. By civilian standard I'm just middle of the pack (e.g. IDPA). Re-qual is every 2 years and uses approx. 500 rounds, but definitely less than 1k. Depends on how much training you required. Most people that have to carry a gun every day for work requal every 6mth or 1yr. However, the tests are easier IMHO. Shooting an IDPA qualifier is an order of magnitude harder than any qualification test I've seen.

#2, they aren't. They are using just 15M/yr. The other ~135/yr is going where?

[MarcSpaz]

Gunderwood, I work for DHS HQ. I know, personally, several Secret Service, FPS and EPS officers that have all talked to me separately about their training. One is my friend and neighbor. I am not saying every agent from every department uses 300,000 round a year, but I know that some do. These guys train so hard and so frequently that my friend is scoring high 280's with an AR-15/M4 and an MP5 at 25 yards while rapid response and front post firing only.

Anyway, it was just an FYI from an insider. Take it for what its worth.

[GeneFrenkle]

Ignorant question, but what is front post firing?

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[dorminWS]

300,000 rounds per year? That's 1,200 rounds per day, 50 weeks a year, 5 days a week?\.

When do they find time to get off the range and be cops?

[WRW]

I've read and heard that professional shooters (exhibition) will shoot between 100,000 and 125,000 rounds in a year. I would wonder about an agent of the government needing to shoot two-three times that amount...all hollow points.

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[gunderwood]

300,000 rounds per year? That's 1,200 rounds per day, 50 weeks a year, 5 days a week?\.

When do they find time to get off the range and be cops?

+1

[MarcSpaz]

Ignorant question, but what is front post firing?

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Front post firing is when you use only the front sight on a set of iron sights on a rifle to acquire your target, rather than true ADS. It is rapid reactionary shooting; just close quarters (10 yards and in for real world) allowing you to detect, acquire and fire on a target quickly. Typically you will be moving squared off in the direction you are heading, crouched, weapon level, both eyes open and watching the front post while scanning ahead.

Front post firing is a common method while slicing the pie to clear a room or fatal funnel.

300,000 rounds per year? That's 1,200 rounds per day, 50 weeks a year, 5 days a week?\.

When do they find time to get off the range and be cops?

My neighbor is Executive Protective Services. He is an extreme example, but guys like him don't patrol or investigate crimes. They are more like body guards, such as what some of the Secret Service staff do.

I've read and heard that professional shooters (exhibition) will shoot between 100,000 and 125,000 rounds in a year. I would wonder about an agent of the government needing to shoot two-three times that amount...all hollow points.

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Another thing to keep in mind is, if you have an MP5 or M4, you can empty a 30 round mag pretty quickly running bust or full auto to lay cover fire on an initial push. They practice all kinds of things like that.

Again, I'm a civilian and I when I am CQ training, I can go through four 30 round rifle mags and a 12 round pistol mag in less than 2 minutes. I'm sure you can go through 1,000-2,000 rounds fairly easily in 2 hours. And I also train with JHP's in my pistol and MP5, but I use XM193's in my M4.