Virginia Gun Owners Forum - VGOF

Kreutz wrote:I see mostly the WASR types mentioned, something called the VZ2008, the VEPR, something called the AMD-65, the Saiga, and the Zastava.

WASRs are alright as long as you can get your hands on it before you buy and check for straightness of the sights and gas block, as well as magazine fit. M10-762 rifles from M+M Inc are pretty much dressed up WASRs.

The VZ2008 is a Century(meh)-made VZ58, which is NOT an AK. It shoots the same ammo but takes different magazines. Aftermarket options are more limited than an AK or SKS.
-If you want a VZ58 rifle, get something from Czechpoint, not Century.

The VEPR are Russian-made AKs that are INCREDIBLY high quality. Built on heavier RPK receivers with thicker and sometimes longer barrels. Aftermarket options are limited, depending on the caliber and degree of conversion already performed. Some are converted already to take AK mags and furniture, but most need to be converted with a bullet guide (like Saigas) to take AK mags. Muzzle device options are limited due to lack of standard barrel thickness and lack of factory-threaded barrels. Stocks can be changed to AK furniture with adapters.

The AMD-65 is Hungarian, and also limits some aftermarket options, like handguards. Many have shorter barrels with the muzzle break permanently affixed, so in order to replace the muzzle device, you need a gunsmith to remove and permanently attach one of appropriate length. Magazine fit has reported to be an issue with some AMDs (nothing a file can't fix).

Saigas aren't the value they used to be. They've gone up in price and you're only saving money if you convert it yourself. Buying one and having it converted professionally is more expensive than many other AK options and is only practical if you want it turned into something specific that few others offer.

Zastavas are Yugoslavian and are normally good quality guns, but the current PAPs that are currently available are okay, because they are brought in and converted to double stack mags by Century(meh). This rifle limits you buttstock choices to pretty much what comes on the gun. I have not seen any aftermarket stocks that attach to the gun the way the PAP stock does. Also, the handguards and gas tubes are longer than normal AKs, so if aftermarket options don't offer a Yugo version, they won't fit.

You really get what you pay for in AKs, so I always suggest at minimum a Arsenal SGL21-61 (~$850). If you're looking to save money, go to a gun show or shop that has multiple WASRs or Interarms guns and get the pick of the litter. (AVOID I/O INTER-ORDNANCE guns. They suck.)

Thats what I'm talking about!

Guess I'll try a gunshow then to paw before I buy. Thanks!

Wow, if they're that expensive, why not just get an American-made Mini-14 or Mini-30?

Once again, Kreutz and I are on similar wavelengths. I'm looking for a truck/car rifle, short, light, quick handling, semiauto with hi-cap mags. A cosmetically-challenged beater would be fine because it will not have a sheltered life in a safe.

I'd get an AK before I got a Ruger Mini rifle. The AK is a bit more robust and the accessory market is much, much larger for the AK. Plus good magazines are more reliable and available for the AK than the Mini rifles, especially the Mini-30. But for a truck gun a WASR-10 would get the job done.

FiremanBob wrote:Wow, if they're that expensive, why not just get an American-made Mini-14 or Mini-30?

Once again, Kreutz and I are on similar wavelengths. I'm looking for a truck/car rifle, short, light, quick handling, semiauto with hi-cap mags. A cosmetically-challenged beater would be fine because it will not have a sheltered life in a safe.

The loose tolerances of the AK type weapons appeal to me (I clean my guns rather infrequently). Plus parts are everywhere.

For short and light the Draco pistols are appealing but I'm sure a folding stock (i.e. best of both worlds) violates some assinine law.

Kreutz wrote:For short and light the Draco pistols are appealing but I'm sure a folding stock (i.e. best of both worlds) violates some assinine law.

The Draco and PAP are considered to be pistols. No problems with a folding stock on a rifle.

Virginia does have a problem with a folding stock on a shotgun that has a drum magazine of 12 rounds or more.

OakRidgeStars wrote:

Kreutz wrote:For short and light the Draco pistols are appealing but I'm sure a folding stock (i.e. best of both worlds) violates some assinine law.

The Draco and PAP are considered to be pistols. No problems with a folding stock on a rifle.

Wouldnt a folding stock on a pistol effectivley turn it into a SBR?

Actually, I was talking about two different things.

The folding stock would only be on a rifle, not one of the AK pistols.

OakRidgeStars wrote:Actually, I was talking about two different things.

The folding stock would only be on a rifle, not one of the AK pistols.

Hm, so can I legally have a folding stock on a Draco? Can't be that hard to spot weld one on.

I'm leery of taking federal law advice on the Internets (not to belittle your advice, I trust you know more about guns than I) because misinformation spreads innocently as truth and I'd hate to get burned for it.

Kreutz wrote:

OakRidgeStars wrote:Actually, I was talking about two different things.

The folding stock would only be on a rifle, not one of the AK pistols.

Hm, so can I legally have a folding stock on a Draco? Can't be that hard to spot weld one on.

I'm leery of taking federal law advice on the Internets (not to belittle your advice, I trust you know more about guns than I) because misinformation spreads innocently as truth and I'd hate to get burned for it.

You can, AFTER you put your Form 1 in to the ATF and receive your tax stamp. Then you have to engrave the receiver as Short-Barreled Rifle. To put a stock on a draco (as its barrel is less than 16") without a tax stamp is a FELONY.

...which is, of course, effin' ridiculous. But what firearms law since 1789 has not been ridiculous?

RocKor wrote:You can, AFTER you put your Form 1 in to the ATF and receive your tax stamp. Then you have to engrave the receiver as Short-Barreled Rifle. To put a stock on a draco (as its barrel is less than 16") without a tax stamp is a FELONY.

Ah, asinine law. Knew it. Seemed too simple to be workable in reality.

Kreutz wrote:

RocKor wrote:You can, AFTER you put your Form 1 in to the ATF and receive your tax stamp. Then you have to engrave the receiver as Short-Barreled Rifle. To put a stock on a draco (as its barrel is less than 16") without a tax stamp is a FELONY.

Ah, asinine law. Knew it. Seemed too simple to be workable in reality.

Rule of thumb for firearms laws...

If it's cool, interesting, sweet, etc. <insert any good adjective> than it's totally illegal or Uncle Sam wants his tax stamp.

I too have been looking at getting a SKS or an AK recently.
you've prob made your decision already or bought one. But what about a vz. 58..
a Czech made AK pattern rifle. Milled receiver, chrome-lined barrel, bolt open on last round etc...

I'm long way from being an expert on these things but I got a chance to shoot a few AK's and one vz.58.. I'll have to say the vz. 58 felt (at lease to me) like a nice solid rifle. compared to the ak's. easy mag changes, no feed or jam issues , easy safety selector...
I think you can get them for about 500-700$
the only problems I see is availability and it does NOT take AK mags. you have to get vz ones.

GL
M-
and post some of what ever you get

Was planning on buying in December, havent had time to hit a gun show.

The vz-58 is appealing and the mags are cheap enough to just get a bunch, but ill have to handle some at a show.

My wife may be getting majorknee surgery in a few weeks so I'll be lucky to make it to a show by December, likely it'll be January.

I'll post pics whenever I finally get something.

I just picked up a Saiga conversion Kreutz and I am loving it

keep in mind you CAN put a U.S. Machine gun adapter for an AR style stock on a Draco/Ak Pistol, but you have to spot weld a 5.5 muzzle brake on the end to keep it legal.

You can LEGALLY turn a Pistol into a Rifle, but not vice versa....

it's not that difficult, and the results are a fantastic vehicle weapon.

I vote AK, but to be fair the reason is becasue I am selling one with ammo in the for sale section.

RocKor really laid out a lot of good information, nothing to really add.

Good luck in your quest, I really think either way you will be pleased.

FiremanBob wrote:Wow, if they're that expensive, why not just get an American-made Mini-14 or Mini-30?

I love the idea if the Mini-14 or -30 -- are they amazing? The Ranch Rifle? And the .223? A good round? Yes, there is the 30's .308. Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the thread.

This is a pretty good deal, and that shop has some other options as well. I bought an AK off them and was very happy with the purchase.

http://www.jgsales.com/-p-1055.html